TRADE SECTION PROTECTION
 

A fraudster who operates on a range of forums occasionally comes for a tickle for a few days on here. He's sacked off the 'FOR SALE' section since his ads are so retarded that it's obviously a scam - now he simply PM's people to offer them stuff so it's out of the moderators eyes.
I got a PM today asking about the chap and I banned him instantly - tomthedon. A clear scammer.


Right - so there are obviously manymany MANY trusted people on here, people who've been on a long time or well known etc. But also new guys to the sport who are genuine and shouldn't be treated like second class citizens.

I propose a fee - either anual or one-off to essentially use the trade section - it would give you a badge of trust in some way (yet to be decided) so even when someone PM's to offer something out of the eyes of anyone else, if they don't have that badge in their profile, ignore them.

What do people think, what's fair? I don't want to go thru thousands of users by hand but I could somewhat automate the process I think.

I'm not looking to take the mickey - I don't want your money - but discouraging fraudsters is the only aim. It's been pointed out that Ebay fees are INSANE and here it's free and works well since everyone is generally honest. The real users of the website ARE indeed honest. It's outsiders that do this on various websites that are the problem.

I don't want to create a 2-tier system where people feel excluded from a part of a FREE forum like rcracechat became back in the day. This isn't about that - I hate to see people getting scammed, so feel free to put in your opinion. If you wouldn't like it, TELL ME, and also why.

How about rewarding your most loyal servants. For instance you get a free gold pass if you have more than 1000 posts and been a member since, say 2005 :thumbsup:

True this - good point mate. Over 1000 posts shows you're not going anywhere in a hurry and likely to be well known.

LOL at DAZ 10 posts over the 1000 :p

No I agree I will only buy from regular contributors and wont sell to just anybody either. You have to be sensible. I think the trader forum could do with a makeover in some way maybe as said a STAR value for ease of trusting somebody. A charge of some kind is also a good way from one off chances.

It helps if people will reply to your trader feedback when you have made a sale, even if it's to say you where a good buyer too as sometimes this swings both ways.

It would be hard to work out who is worth a 'star' or something similar. There are users on here who may not have posted over 1000 items, or been into racing since 2005 etc (no dig just using as a reference) but may have only started racing in the last year, or simply do not use the forums as much as they may not have alot of contact with a PC etc.

It is something to think about though as your right about scammers. Perhaps a small fee would not be objectable, but I would then say what would happen with the money ? This again isn't a dig, but a previously mentioned site ended up with some rather nasty arguments about where money went..and then didn't. It was run more as a business than for the sport (like oOple is for the sport). I guess as long as that is seen (perhaps the money is used to upgrade servers etc etc for the site) I doubt many would argue with it. Making the fee small to would also help. Enough to push away scammers, but not so much people worry about cost (perhaps £5-£10 for a year).

If possible to perhaps under the users avatar there could be a trade feedback score, similar to Ebay in that it shows your positive feedback perhaps too which would be your indicator that you are safe to trade with etc.

Lets wait for others to reply, get some different views, then move forward from there

Maybe a little off topic but a sugestion would be to include the first part of there post code.will also allow people to see whos close so can collect

A fiver a year for advertising is no bother really, if you cant be bothered to pay it then I guess you have no business advertising on oople

Stunning news as it is to some - the oOple race series and invernational have always been non-profit and seperate from me (oOple) in that way totally. I've had my costs reimbursed for trophies and stickers and such like as have all the other guys on the team that have put their own money into stuff. The sponsors we've managed to get sorted for the oOple series again are to help with the costs and to make a better event and totally seperate from me and oOple - it's a charitable / club account controlled by someone else.

For me, the best way to at least try protect people is to make them a part of it. The PM offers are the biggest problem now - the only way to keep that safe is to make people be a part of it by joining.

People see adverts on here and join to buy something - I can see it being really off putting to find out you need to suddenly pay money to join in on the action.

It's been suggested I 'charge' a nominal fee for adverts - this isn't protecting people, it's only about earning money. Nothing wrong with earning money - I am self employed and freelance and oOple is all I have - but I don't really like that route.

This is free - it's just how you want to be protected. The forsale section probably sees thousands of pounds change hands every week - I feel personally responsible if someone is scammed.

Can even keep it all open and just let people choose to become 'trusted' members - photo id and addressed utility bill photocopy with a fiver in an envelope along with your full name, dob and phone number etc. Stick it in a drawer and forget about it unless someone is scammed - which probably wouldn't happen from someone who goes to those lengths to prove their honesty.
Again - for those longtime or many-post members - it could just be automatic that they gain their wings of trust. Or something like that.

I hated the them and us on racechat - we all moved to Doughtyuk.net - I set up the forum on here only because Doughty was sponsored and I wanted a place to talk about non-losi stuff.
I don't want to profit from it - but the idea of a trusted member makes me feel warm inside. as for money - I can buy some stuff and give it away in competitions if you like. Might get miself a maccyD's from it tho also.

Good idea charging a fiver to use the for sale section but there's nothing to stop a scammer paying that fee just so they can have that loyalty badge next to their name and still scam people on the forum. You could possibly get round this by charging and a minimum of 50 posts throughout the forum BEFORE you get that little badge next to your name. I think it should be compulsory for buyers/sellers to leave feedback with whoever they are dealing with, would help others decide if to do that deal or not before handing their money over

how about doing a minimum score of 5 good feedback before you can sell or post a wanted add on the forum

fiver
 

A fiver a year is an absolute bargain to advertise your stuff on here.
As for the post above regarding what the money is used for, thats the site owners business. I just cant see theproblem in paying a small fee to use a service. you might think this is like a community forum but its not. The site has expenses that are the responsibility of the owner.
I say a fiver is a very small price to pay and i dont care if its all spent on a five star carribean holiday and a ferrari

Thing is if the guy is PMing people then theres not a huge amount that can be done, if he is the same person each time, then maybe its worth we track down his I.P/other info and get in touch with his service provider and tell them they are supplying a fraudster a connection, they then have no option to look in to it.

The for sale trusted idea is needed, as im getting back in to things i have no idea who i can trust, besides the people I know so anything would have to go through paypal if it all goes tits up!

On photography forums - where the equipment is serious money they dont allow users to join the for sale section untill the admins feel they have contributed enough to the website. This isnt something as easy like on this site where there are alot of active users. However as suggested maybe a post count of a few hundred could be implemented - THEN they can pop in a donation to be cleared of use and get a shiney symbol on their userspace.
Maybe with that we could have their ebay feedback on there profile, or if that isnt able to be seen then implement a feeback system on profiles.

It is a hard task to admin those areas as there is so much activity, and the trust factor would help everyone.

How about not allowing pm's or buyers/sellers not responding, just post on the actual thread and have a eBay style feedback system so at least other people can see and advise on the buyer/seller so if something sounds dodgy then someone can assist, as for paying I don't think that would work as the scammer could just pay eg £5-10 is nothing compared to conning someone out of £200

Not trying to have debate about Daz's comment, but just coz you have posted over 1000 times is insignificant. Look at Captain Lip, he's not on here now (as far as I know) and he was posting multiple times per day, and look at the trouble he caused. Was entertaining to read though.

I don't believe that just because you don't post alot, or you joining time is recent, you should be penalised. I used oople as my refrence for 10th racing when I was looking to change to 8th in '09, yet only felt the need to join the forum in '11 and I rarely feel the need to post.
Im not trying to put any noses out of joint here but for half the posts I read, they are either nonsense, inaccurate or personel jokes that everyone else on the forum is not involved with. Freedom of speech is not something I want to see regulated, it is after all what makes this forum what it is.
The point im trying to make is quantity is not always quality.

I don't often buy or sell, but what I do sell is in excellent condition and I usually buy parts for the cars I have sold, so the car is in perfect working order for the seller which is something I probably didn't have to do but I would hate it if someone described the item as excellent working order and it simply isn't.

I totally support the idea for a small fee for traders.

Fully agree, sold my 210 for a good price, the buyer was happy but told me he was not leaving me feedback and did not leave a reason. Thank you 33sport.

Very long winded but I think I covered my point.

Going marginally away from this can the colours of the feedback left be changed. I linked someone to my feedback here via email but when I checked the link later on as I wasn't logged in I saw what other people saw. The positive feedback is highlighted in red, at first glance seeing a long red line and nothing else looks bad, if it was green for good that would make more sense.

Paying to sell / having minimum of 100 post count makes complete sense. I think the post count is probably better though as if it's 100 it wouldn't probably put a scammer off. And if a mod sees someone constantly posting rubbish to obviously get their post count up they can step in.

If it was only a fiver and the scammer stands to make £200 it's not much for him to have to loose. The post count takes time which they won't bother with.

The £5 a year sounds ok to me. As for scammers I think its up to everyone who pays for something to STOP PAYING BY GIFT unless you really know the seller.
Gift is just asking for trouble. A few years back we had B4pete who had sold a lot then turned scammer and even Lee with thousands of posts let down a lot of buyers.
Pay the fee's protect your hard earned money.

A scammer won't pay £5. They won't send ID, they will look for an easier target.

I am talking about Tom Heath or whatever his name is - he's a criminal - Captain Lip might have talked a lot of bollocks but he wasn't a scammer.

I am talking about someone joining and PM'ing to offer good deals - and running off with the money. I won't stop people PM'ing because it's an important part of the forum - but a 'trusted' badge at least gives people some peace of mind. If someone PM's you and they are new and have no 'badge of trust' or whatever, then you can be cautious. That's not to say it's fool proof or people won't disagree on things despite no actual scamming going on.

Two cars side by side, one locked up, one with the windows open and keys in the ignition. Which does the crim choose.

Just a thought,

You could do the 'badge of trust' now for those with say 10 trades or in the Trade forum and also with a good feedback poll ;)

When and if the 'badge of trust' is implemented replace the badge with the a new one to show they have paid the fee.

I voted, Yes - Let me pay £5 a year to keep it safe

Why not just make it a rule that paypal gift is not allowed full stop. Paypal allready protect the buyer, also recorded signed for postage. Always gonna be scammers around, but trade section will die off with a £5 fee required, only a minority will pay it imo. Try it out and see, you could allways refund it if it doesnt work. :)

What about it being optional though? Yeah I don't want to pay but then again if I want to sell some RC stuff it will go on here in seconds - it will go on ebay in a week and you'll pay for it!
Optional means you've at least been checked out and stand out. Feel free to sell on ebay - it's crap. :lol:


paypal gift is fine between friends - I don't like people asking for it though.

I don't see the fee putting them off,how about the first 20 items have to pay into an oople account,once the item is recieved then you send the funds,that would put them off

I think the whole point is the £5 is not REQUIRED, it is however an option to prove you are genuine. If people choose to trade with un verified vendors, then that is their own gamble and at their own risk.

I think the whole 'PayPal gift' thing is due to PayPal (or should I say Ebay it's owner) ramping up charges. To be honest Ebay is disgusting now compaired to when it first started. YHou get charged about 5% for a sale, + the insert fees then add VAT too. I sold a car recently for £220, I got only £190 out of it after ebay/Paypal took it's money. Thats a ridiculous fee if you ask me when eBay stood for general people trading when it started. But, as with all things, got big, cornered things, took over, decided what people would pay and ended up just a shop front.

Find myself agreeing with Daz on this one...................:o

if you add the fiver to the minimum posts as well that should cover most scammers

Although £5 is a small amount, you will only get those that sell through oOple on a more regular basis and probably loose those that only have the occasional or small items to sell.

Taking a small percentage of sales doesn't help either as in the case of a spammer, he's already walked away with your money. Stopping paypal gift is a good solution as it gives you some cover and sellers only need to add the extra onto the sale price beforehand if they so wish.

Another forum not related to RC but of similar size that I'm on, used to not allow anyone to sell until they had been on for 30 days and had posted at least 25 times with some worthwhile content. This does involve a bit of policing though as they can post 25 times saying hello, so their posts would need checking before allowing them to sell.

Also on the subject of the other forum I mentioned they would run the "For Sale" section much the same as this one and it was very buoyant with hundreds of sales each week from big items, to items costing pennies. They decided to move on and use one of the marketplace sale sections which took a percentage. Over a short period of time it had lost the small sale items and became a more trade section or for regular sellers and basically lost all its appeal as somewhere to sell/buy those bargains.

Tricky one this Jimmy.

I've bought and sold lots on oOple - but not really used the trader feedback - i've never asked for it and only recently saw someone had posted a bit for me. Maybe it's just me, but for occasional seller (like me) - I have very little feedback even though i've sold loads.

High post count is good - or maybe you just need to be voted 'trusted' by other members - start by 'trusting' the main guys you know Jimmy and then they can trust others - like a pyramid scheme :) :)

No worries paying the trader fee - but as mentioned it's not really a deterrent unless you are asking for real proof of identity which will be a huge job to manage / process.

Bloody nightmare - if people want to scam folk they will always find a way mate :(

Just my view, paying a fiver to scam someone of £250 wouldn't really put someone off I think, on landrover zone, another forum I go on they have a minimum posts rule which generally deters any scammers, I like the idea of the postcode idea as suggested before. How about having a reference from a trusted member as most of the new members have been referred here by someone from their racing club

Not sure if this is what you were trying to get at but what about your username is a different colour depending on how many other members vote you to be a good trader and a trusted member

This is a great idea but i think it tasks jimmy with too much to deal with. The other issue I see is the people who have earned trust will still need to pay the fee. I dont think I fully understand the process you have in mind though.

Pay fee along with proof of address and id? Dont get me wrong, ive sold stuff on here and ebay and would easily pay a fiver. I just think a lot wont.

If I were you Jimmy I think i would remove this thread and just announce that its coming into effect in x weeks. You might get a better idea of who, if any wont be happy :)

Just my pov, but i gotta say if i knew i was gonna scam someone for anything over £20 then a one off payment of £5 is nothing. Id pay it if i was a scammer.

Personally i think unless you lock it down crazy levels then you are never going to beat it, and it would be better to not have a trade section, and just let people use ebay instead. Sure you have fees, but at least you get protection of some form.

Assuming the trade section will stay i would say:

• Ban listing items are buyer pays fees or gift
• Pictures in adverts must have bit of paper showing name, username, and date
• Postage tracking numbers must be provided - no standard postage

Even then, policing the section would be a full time job, and Jimmy etc give enough time to this site, they cant be expected to do that as well.

I don't just think it'd put someone off, I also think it'd totally stop it. The more HE knows the more he changes - I can't post up what I know but do you really think this dickhead would pay £5 to be looked into? hahahaha. NO!

I've banned him before he's made a single post before several times - the fact he wants to be recognised as a legit person would ensure I looked at him and ensure he merely lost his money.

If you define scam as someone sending something late, something getting lost in the post (I have something clear customs on the 22nd - still no sight of it) etc then that will always happen. People disagree on condition of items etc. Obviously I'm not talking about this - but about 5 people got offered things from this guy and at least one guy who I've already contacted has paid him.

Gift or not, I don't think it matters. Has anyone got money back via paypal outside of Ebay? Maybe I'm wrong.

Won't happen.

unfortunately yes. i had someone claim back for something they said hadnt arrived. partly my fault as i forgot to give them the tracking code and lost the receipt. Found it months later after paypal had refunded him to find it was actually delivered.

live and learn i guess.

I guess it really depends what you mean when you say "looked into". If i pay my £5, what is looked into? What does a paypal account being verified mean exactly? maybe that could be something to go by?

Is there some kind of ebay style add in for the forum where people can build up a feedback rating on top of paying a one off/yearly fee?

How about if your good/bad feedback numbers showed next to your user name? You could then see how many trades someone has done and how many users have been happy with the trade easily.

You could add oople friends too.

Something like

SAMD - Trader score +10/-0 - Oople friends 7 -

I think a bage of trust is a good idea working on a minimun of senior member plus proof of a brca number and club membership that way others will know the person plus the brca have details

We had similar problems with a massive (50,000 + users) car forum where people were constantly getting scammed left right and centre. Big money sometimes on Turbos and expensive difficult to find parts.

We thought long and hard about it and ended up making the for sale section only able to post if you have signed up. Now i know you have to register to use the forum but VBulletin allows many tiers of registration. We allowed the for sale section open to view to non-registered users, (google bots etc trawl every part of the forum so this is a two-fold reason). However to sell through the forum you had to be signed up with by supplying valid details and paying a small contribution for the privilege.

Scamming dropped by 90% within a week - yes you can still get caught but limiting the site liability in that is half the battle. Its a difficult line to walk but i believe a one off small fee is definately the way to go :thumbsup:

I can't tell you what would be looked into sorry.

I've been conn ed out of £100 on another forum i go on, i payed the normal way and i managed to get the money back, it just takes about 2 months to get it back. I only noticed it was a con after a week of no replies and he got banned within 10 minutes if receiving my money which i didn't notice until it was too late!

There is no way of stopping the scammers, all you can do is slow them down by adding things like fees, feedback scores, minimum posts etc...

I must admit, I don't look at seller feedback, normally I check to see how many posts/friends and when they joined... These give me a good idea of whether they have anything to loose by screwing me over...

The PM selling thing wouldn't really be stopped by the fee, so I think people need to use their common sense and think before sending money if some random newly joined user with no friends offers them goods... its a scammer!!!

It also begs the question, if a sale went wrong what would the badge of trust actually mean? (for example something lost in the post) who would be liable?

Would you loose this trust mark if some goods didn't arrive?

I think the usual process is to claim from royal mail. If someone can't explain their actions sure - they can lose their status. I've had people complain about being scammed - when they weren't at all.

If someone PM's you (they HAVE TO PM YOU TO BUY SOMETHING) then yes - their status is obvious. Same as if they PM to sell you something.