Where did the hobby go ?
 

Just spent a lazy sunday evening relaxing in the bath and was thinking to myself about how much i enjoyed the Rc hobby when I was a kid.... Got me thinking about where it all is now, so I thought i'd post a thread to start of a discussion and see where everyone else is at with it all.

I wonder do people still regard this as a 'hobby', is it a passtime, a way of life, a job, a sport, a career, or is it professional racing ?

For me it's a hobby and always will be.
My general gripe is, where will new racers come from if it isn't treated as a hobby ? I can't remember, or know of anyone taking it up in this region for the last few years, It's the same harcore bunch year in year out, although my sense is that club numbers are dwindling. I know buggies is supposodly on the up and all that, as touring car racers come over and such like, but it's hardly newsworthy. I guess a large part of this is due to the HUGE cost involved, you simply can't compete today at club level in our region in either tourers or buggies, club level simply doesn't exist as everyone that does bother to attend a meeting has spent a small fortune trying to keep up with everyone else ! (As an example I attended Gtcc the other night and really enjoyed it for my first time back with tourers, I liked the idea of 19T Spec motors and rubber tyres. I turned up with the intention of running my old gear, after all it would be a 'club' meeting. How wrong I was, I ended up running my newset cells (saved for my Pred!) and changing to foam tyres to get onto the pace, the amount of kit knocking about was staggering, fancy motor coolers, lipo cells, the works !)

Anyhow, I think it's a shame really, I used to love the old interclubs / regionals we had in the days of the RC10, optima and cat. You turned up at the first meeting and handed over £15 for your stock motor, it was marked and you had to use it for the duration of the series, you couldn't open it up either ! I never remember being overtaken by a similar car / driver down the straight as the cars were similarly matched in terms of available equipment, the racing was close and mostly I remember it was fun.

My feeling it that today the business side of the 'hobby' is far too prevalent, sponsored drivers, teams, people pushing product on forums because they run it for a given maunfacturer etc. It's all too much for me. I enjoy Jimmy's forum becuase the people on here are generally sound. Although more recently some of the stuff I am reading makes me wince, no offence to anyone or anything in particular, but I really don't care who drives what or who's driving for who, and I hate people giving advice, like the XXXX car is the best because they run it for whoever, please.... it just makes my cringe, give people some credit.

On a plus side, I know there are a few like minded souls out there, and if I can get over to York I will be running in the 'classic' series with one of my old cars, as for me this is exactly what this hobby is about.

What does anyone else think, am I the only one that thinks these dark thoughts, is our hobby turning into an elitist 'sport' for only the truly gifted or the truly wealthy ? I know I can go faster at this years indoor regionals, but it will mean putting my hand deep into my pocket, again, surely a line needs to be drawn somewhere for the sake of the 'hobby' ?

i agree, the hobby is becoming too expensive to compete at regional level. And it must really discourage new people taking it up when they come down the club and say "how much is your car?" I know we can point them down the second hand route, but i bought most of mine second hand when i got back into the hobby a few years ago and i still spent best part of a grand.

I recently had a child and lost one income so the "hobby" expense was cut back and the knock on to my results was fairly evident. the killer is cells, especially the new 4200's that don't seem to have a great lifespan.
decent chargers are also a big expense. back in the 90's i had a schumacher pc3 charger for about £40. now i have a pulsar 2 and cdc, over £300 combined.

the cars and speedos aren't much more than they ever were. tyres and cells are the problem.

bring back 27t stock on slippery wood floors in the local village hall!!

Hi you all, I really like this post!

I want to point out that this is my very personal opinion.

This is a business. Well, maybe for some of us it's the best hoby in the world but, for manufacturers this is just a business. The most we expense the mot they earn. I think it's that simple.

Because of that manufacturers try as hard as they can to induce us to desire and "need" more expensive, sophisticated and cuestionable utility tools/devices.

Today, as Andy pointed, we see extremelly expensive equipment on the pits, with or without the necessary skills to get profit from it. Here in Spain I have seen people running alone, or with two other pals in a lonely parking lot and their cars in running condition cost more than 700€ each, just think about this.

The best thing is that I still can defeat them all with my entry level Raider, just because I don't spin, crash, run out of battery or melt my motor.

Ultra expensive parts don't win races, your driving skills and your ability to set up your car properly does. A great car helps, but it needs a great driver at wheel.

For me I nrealy stopped racing a few weeks ago, I seem t have lost my speed, and ability. Since then I hvae decided to stick at it, put in loads of practice, and go for the 2wd nationals next year.

I am also making my own 2wd car, which i suppose could lead my hobby into a job, but we'll see;)

I got into this "hobby" a little over 12months ago, and I have to say that nothing else that I do these days is more fun! I can't wait till sat night at York or Sun at Batley to thrash the nuts off by cars! Having said that, I bought ALL my stuff secondhand over the last year and I daren't think how much it cost. (actually I've thought about it now, and it's in excess of £700) Not only that, but my year old matched 3300 cells(and properly matched at that) are now nowhere near quick enough to compete at club level at York in my B4, nevermind in a recently jointly purchased XX4. So, hands into pockets again.

P.S. anyone know where I can get some decent 3700's from?

I actually don't think the costs are too bad in recent years. It will still cost a bit to get going initially but for regional and club meetings it's not too bad.

Cells and motors are now much cheaper than they used to be for good ones, the cells I made the 4wd A final with at Tiverton this year were £27 a pack and 6 months old! We can buy from the US, motors for £35, speedo's for £75, brand new B4 team kits for about £100, you don't have to spend thousands.
Likewise radio gear, I only changed my old Acoms transmitter I'd used for yonks to a KO because the poor little Acoms was getting swamped by all the powerful transmitters at bigger meetings. I didn't get any faster with my KO, stuff like steering EPA ect are nice to have for setting the car up but you can get it close enough if you know how to set your car up properly.

I rekon you could start from scratch with £500 and have brand new gear capable of winning regionals, all the carbon fibre this titanium that doesn't make you car go any faster. At the higher levels you obviously need the car to be working as well as the thumbs, but for club meetings you don't need mega bucks to enjoy yourself which is the reason we race toy cars in the first place isn't it?

Col, give Nick at Demon a call, he'll sort you out with some decent cells :smile:

or Voodoo cells.

I agree with Richard there, its more the driver than anything else. Obviously within reason, dont spend £20 on a second hand Tamiya Frog, with a nicd battery pack and expect to be running at the top of your club, likewise, dont spend ££££'s on the top charger's, batteries, cars e.t.c, as if you're not up to the spec of the car, or cant set it up, its worthless.

Work your way up. start with a 'team' style spec, that way you get the optimum balance between performance, strength, and value.

and dont forget, as I have over the past few years, you are doing this for fun, its a hobby, not the end of the world when you have 'peaked' in performance, and on a slippery slope to the crap finals again:D

I wrote this article back in 2002 when I was with RRCi ...


Learning the Ropes

‘Buggies are coming back.’ How many times have you heard that lately? The recent Worlds would seem to suggest that offroad really is in it’s final death throws but I wonder if that event can really be taken as a representative of the state of offroad. There are a few things that need to be taken into consideration here, firstly the event was cancelled in the aftermath of the events of September 11th, then they were rescheduled to coincide with the onroad event and all in a country that didn’t seem to appeal to many drivers it has to be said. You then have to take into account the global importance of touring cars to the manufacturers and realise that many of them will have felt the need to concentrate solely on onroad. So maybe that event shouldn’t be taken as a real indication of what’s going on.

I would guess there are quite a few readers out there who have never raced a buggy, maybe some of you have never even seen a buggy race; you are missing out. For those of you that fit that category and for those of you who have forgotten how things were, maybe its time for a very quick history lesson. Let’s hop into the RC Time Tunnel and hit the button for the early 1980’s.

Yeah OK, so the haircuts are kinda weird and yes those songs were done before by someone else but let’s concentrate for a moment on the racing. Luckily we got here early enough to see the first few people arrive at the field (but it could be a park or sports ground etc). But where is the track and what are these guys doing? No, that guy is not going to race that lawnmower but he is going to cut out a track in the grass and the other guy dragging the ropes out of the back of his car is going to mark the boundaries out with them, that’s right, just ropes. Those milk crates and scaffold boards are indeed going to be the ‘rostrum’.

As the racers turn up its easy to see a huge variety of cars and drivers of all abilities, there are of course the local ‘hot shots’ with their Cats, PB’s and RC10’s but there are buggies of every kind here and when booking in starts there seems to be no difference made between 2wd and 4wd and the heats are sorted based on ability and previous form, but I don’t hear anyone complaining. The racing starts and two things strike you immediately, one, people are smiling on the rostrum and one guy is even laughing at his huge crash which his buggy survived intact, and the other thing is no one has remembered to put their transponder in! The reason is simple, there are no transponders, there isn’t even a computer at this race, it is all being ‘timed’ manually with clickers (go and ask an old racer if you don’t know what these are, the older the better).

In spite of everyone seemingly running the same tyre (there was nothing to beat the Schumacher Spike) and a 17 turn motor being considered pretty wild, the racing is close and plenty fast enough. It certainly seems a nicer day being stood in a field or a park rather than on a chunk of tarmac all day when its sunny and lets be honest every big kid likes playing in the mud when it’s a wet day.

At the end of the meeting everyone packs up and the track (the ropes) is thrown into the back of the car it came in. The grass will grow back and anyway the layout will be different next week and will stay off the barest patches. Yes, sure it only appears to be a handful of people that are clearing up but then some things never change do they?

Sadly its time to hop back into our time tunnel and get back to today’s touring car race. Just time to get the car scruiteneered, I wonder what tyre/wheel/insert combination is going work today from this huge tyre box, better skim and rebrush this motor and decide on some gearing that I can last the 5 minutes on with these 3000 mah cells. Let’s pick a bodyshell that will give me the handling I need to chase those 100ths of a second. Get the car on the setup board, check for tweak, select springs and damper oils and race face on …. The old days are starting to look good aren’t they?

Buggies are huge fun and especially in the 2WD class can be a very cheap way to go racing and the speeds can be crazy with even the most basic of motors and cells available today and you can add to that the almost zero maintenance. Sure they don’t look that realistic but then they will be going so fast you wont really notice and when you are flying off a jump or pulling a huge wheelie will you really care?

Maybe what offroad needs, and the sport in general, is a return to the basics, keep it simple, keep it fun; maybe it’s a time to re-learn ‘the ropes’.

the problem is, what you need and what you 'perceive' you need are usualy two totaly different things.

I have been racing offroad at a club with about 30 regulars lately that is 1.l5 hours away from me but worth the drive.

Weekend just gone I raced my new B4 with one set of wheels/tyres with Green Minispikes on them. I used an old touring 12 turn motor and used the cheapy enduro brushes I get from BRM. I used 3 stick packs that were peanuts (Vapex) - they cost I think £12 or £13 each something like that - 3700s.

I qualified 5th out of 22 drivers and they don't seperate 2wd or 2wd there :D

Great fun, dirt cheap - maintenance when I got back involved 1 cup of tea and a paintbrush

Interesting responses.

Mr Lowe, bless you my son, I can't believe you think the hobby isn't too expensive ! how many sets of tyres would you need to buy to compete in say a series of regionals, or worse still a series of outdoor nationals ? Add in the actual cost of getting there and back too and it just gets crazy.

Imagine how much 'expendable' income the average family has these days for hobbies and such like, this really is a hobby for people that either still live at home, don't drink / smoke etc, or have a decent job / understanding wife or partner.

I wonder what percentage of drivers at a National are sponsored in some shape or form ? As this is a competitive hobby, the privateer driver will always want to do better, be quicker, not be overtaken down the straight etc, which inevitably leads to spending more hard earned. Maybe 'team drivers' should compete against 'team drivers' and the rest of us should compete against each other ? I for one would then make the significant effort (and stomach the expense) to travel to the Nationals, as i'd know i'd have a fighting chance of doing well. I'm not eluding myself, I know after god knows how many years that i'm not going to beat any of our decent drivers, the thing is, even if I was as good, i'd still loose out because my car would simply be slower, not fun !

If this is a hobby, then it would be nice for it to be treated as such, I just can't see people keeping up their attendance when a large percentage of the drivers run for one team or another, the privateer will eventually die out and only attend local / club events.

I see your points and reasoning Andy.

but to a certain extent is that not what club and regional level is for?

you also have 'national' events for F2's and F3/4/5's etc...?

to a certain extent you can battle with your piers at nationals too with the 'top Fx' trophies etc...

the major cost(s) I see is tires and travel/accomodation right now with motors and batteries we are trying quite hard to slow them down to make them driveable. I don't think team drivers have advantage with batteries having the better stuff, and the 'budget' equipment is so good right now that you can have a fast car.

performance on race day comes down to setup, tires and driving I think. one of them is a 'cost' item.

that cost item is not 'free' for as many drivers as you might think.

I don't want to stand against your argument, but I want to understand exactly what you mean and where you want to go.

from speaking to people ie tricky taylor and others i have been told that the cars can now have too much power so there really is not much advantage on having better cells/motors etc if you cant use it.

like doughty said we all race in formulas and this is racing against people of the same standard and also allowing you to mix it with some better drivers if you do well enough.

One question though is it new tyres every run or two runs etc to be at the top?

oh and i do have another, why is neil cragg world champ?, is it because he had a special set of cells that nobody else could buy or did his thumbs and natural talent have a bit to do with it?

:)

it can be, depends on the track, but there have been people on 'new tires each run tracks' that don't do that and still get in the A

I am a recently born again electric offroader so I hope I am not speaking out of turn ...

TC is currently having some real problems and one of those is the cost of tyres - I went to the F2s (on Saturday) and had a great time with my untried car and one set of tyres - I got well and truly thrashed though.

After the event I asked around and found out that most of the quick boys used a set of tyres per run !!!! - this is F2s remember.

If I have some spare money for my sport I want to spend that on a better motor maybe, save it for a speedo or a posher charger - I don't want to be wasting it on sets of tyres.

Like I said - I got round ok all day on one set of tyres (but not on the pace) - if everyone had only one set of tyres (greens ?) would the racing have been any worse for it ????

I understand exactly what you're saying Rob, the main thing is surely that if everyone's in the same position, it won't actually affect the racing will it?

Maybe not just one set a day, but at least if tracks picked a control tyre that lasted well you could choose to use 1 or 2 sets?

BB Pins for instance at Kidderminster are never going to last more then 1 possibly 2 runs in the dry...

I can understand people wanting to drive a car that is set-up absolutely perfect and with New tyres is awesome to drive fast.... but what difference would it make if everyone had to use Schumacher Blues on Grass for example? Do you remember how well they used to work and last? I can remember everyone switching to Yellows which wear out a lot quicker.... but obviously are that little bit quicker round the track which is what counts when there's no rule on compounds.

I am just starting to get back into racing after a good 4/5 years out and can only now really appreciate the costs of things. When i was racing not only did my Dad pay for everything in the early days, but i got to a level where i was a Factory supported driver so didn't have to worry about Tyres, Spares, Wheels or Electrics.

Now i've got my own house, car and god knows what else to pay for it's really hit home just how lucky i was at the time (wish i'd appreciated it more)! It's without doubt a very expensive hobby i have to agree, that's why i've got an old B3 with enough spares to keep it going for a while just so I can have some fun and see if I really am serious about racing again..

I must admit, the though of doing a National don't scare me, the thought of the cost to be truly competitive at a 'race weekend' is, and that is tyres and brushes. As a family man, I can quite easily compensate the cost of travelling (helps to be on LPG too) against a weekend away, plus camping brings the cost down. But when it comes to it, the tyres just tip the scale, and I don't see the point of attending a national to 'make up the numbers'.

Regional racing is far more fun, and being in a region that isn't too competitive allows the use of Yellows for a couple of meetings, not having to skim every other run, but then even if it was (and when it was in the mid 90's) I would maybe put a new set of rears on in a day.

Total cost of racing has realy improved though, kit prices, cells, motors and electronics realy have been quite stable for the past 10 years, so in effect, top line equipment is far more obtainable. The internet has also helped for those 'cost aware racers', but, I do think, when people come to a race meeting, and see the amount of stuff we have, parents banks accounts close up shop.

A good way to get Kids into it without putting parents off would surely be a RTR Class where you literally have to run the cars as they come, that B4 RTR looks pretty good now?

Guess the problem again is Numbers though... you need people to be doing it to attract new starters.

I remember CML doing a Proline series where there were Control tyres and 15T motors for everyone - that helped a bit but didn't really take off.

Thats was quality, i beat a xx4 with my b3 :D

ok this is getting interesting, now i am coming back to off road after 10 years racing on road, i am in a lucky position to be able to buy what i want to go racing, now this is all well and good if you come away with a smile on your face but nobody likes to spend £100 on tyres for a day and come away with a poor result.
Touring cars is daft the btcc series this year people were using tyres for 1 run in 19t. thats £125 on a days racing on tyres alone, this is before motors cells etc. this is why TC is dying.
Now as i see it off road is more about driving and not making mistakes and keeping the car under control, i know setup plays a big part too but its not so critical as on road where if your 1mm/rev out you get left behind.
surely people want to be able to just stick the car on the track and race them and by the sounds of it this is where off road is at right now, there will always be consumables ie brushes, tyres etc but that is racing we knew about the costs when we started.
Maybe a tyre rule would be a good leveller like 2 full sets of xxx per meeting (tyre dictated by hosting club)
Just a thought but it would have to be proposed at the off road agm

Still got my motor from that series, and the nail varnish marked pinion. :D Think I've even got the front tyres we used, they were the Fastrax 2-Row studs in Yellow.

I remember the Euro's in Teeside 98 having a limited amount of tyres you could use, once decided you had to go and get them marked up with Nail Varnish......

Was still expensive but not as bad as it would have been!

It would be great if they could include Tyres as part of the Entry fee for the meeting (makes it fair for everyone, and the BRCA could make a bit more to pump back into the hobby)? Just an idea, not one for the sponsored drivers though...

Would just mean nobody had to take tyres with them, just a couple of pairs of wheels and then collect tyres with your race numbers etc!?

It is a great idea nick but what are the odds of it happening?

the sponsored drivers will not be over impressed but it should not matter the cream will always come to the top

I don't see tyres being included in the entry price but you could designate a qty and mark then with nail varnish - the TC boys have been doing this for years.

I am not sure if this is needed or desirable for nationals (never done an offroad national myself) but maybe an idea for consideration at regionals ?

The thing that worries me (and I have no facts to back it up) is that drivers will come in from TC (more the merrier) but will bring with them 'TC Mentality' - and that mentality can sometimes be a base of throwing money at it to move yourself up a few places. Who wants that ? Not me thats for sure - there are many things that I am enjoying about offroad right now and the current lack of that mentality is one of those things.

Too right rob i was looking the other day at the stuff i have for on road racing like £130 tyre warmers, boxes of additives all sorts of weird and wonderful tyre combinations.
The technology to some extent has killed the fun factor of racing over the years.
i just cant wait for round 1 of the NE regionals, i just hope the BJ4 gets here in time

there is nothing I would prefer more than to be able to use a set of (pre-mounted would be ace) 'standard' long lasting tires for a while meeting. everyone else to do the same.

I would quite happily sacrafice grip for this, half the fun of off-road can be the lack of grip.

this would also negate the speed is king factor. and reward the 'driver'

but every year there has been so much talk of what people want, but it has never been suggested at the AGM.

ok so when do the proposals have to be in? or has the date passed?

I am pretty sure you have had it for this year as far as the BRCA AGM is concerned and new proposals.

That said I am pretty sure there is nothing to stop anyone suggesting this at regional level is there ?

I know thats what I would like to see in my region.

I think the easiest thing is not to set a compound as I cannot see a 100% accurate way of policing that - but if you went for a fixed set of rear per day then it would self police as far as compound is concerned.

Why not say you can have a max of 3 rear tyres - no I havent gone mad - but it would allow for a broken wheel or torn tyre.

How many sets do you think it should be ? (talking regionals here)

There is always lots of talk about controlling the number of sets per day, running extra 'budget' classes, and such - all are always totally unworkable 'on the day', there is simply not the time or personnel running the meeting to control it. It often seems a good idea but is never practical.

I race at NE & NW regionals along with all nationls on a tight (some of you will know how tight I am:rolleyes: ) budget - I have an ace time at racing. I frankly dont care if I'm in the Z final, cos' I've got a life.

Maybe if Kiddy ran Schu Spikes as nominated tyre it would help (this'll not happen however) but nothing else will make a spot of difference to me.

Being in the Z final is always better than staying at home doing chores - never forget that :D

Does it really need to take long ?

When you book in you take your 2 rear race tyres - they get marked with 2 blobs of nail varnish and checked for your BRCA number on them on the inside.

If when you car gets teched after each round you dont have nail varnish you are in trouble. Anyone found cheating gets hung drawn and quartered !

This was done, it was stopped (approx 6 years back) due to time & personnel issues.

Hi Stu

Is it worth considering bringing it back ?

Just how long can it take ?? :confused:

I am in the same boat as most of you regards money. I have done nationals for the last two years (around the bottom three finals) and I dont think that I am making up the numbers. I wont throw money at the sport as I dont have any spare, so I will use one set of tyres per meeting and I have run 18 month old cells and a 12 month old motor all year without changing brushees and it is still like a rocket down the straight. I think of it like this yes the top drivers are fast but they can control the cars better than me and I can enjoy watching them when I am not racing. I dont think money makes a fast driver talent makes a fast driver and good setup, I was at Kiddy on Sunday and my best time was 12 laps in 314 Neil Craggs best was 14 laps but his car wasnt any quiker than mine or had more grip he just drove it better. You could spend a fortune to watch a formula one world champ but you wont be racing with him, on sunday I spent a little (one set of tyres) and I was racing at the same meeting as the world champ. I was in the bottom final on sunday but I won it so all I have to say is I won my final and I am happy with that.:) :)

Spencer, you are 100% correct.

Rob, I suspect you are aware, but not too many are, of the ammount of time & effort that goes into running a regional, never mind a national.
It is not alot of time to check a set of tyres, I agree, but it's 4 tyres on 10 cars in 13 heats over 4 rounds and 15 finals - for two days.
Everone wants it done, but, no one actually wants to do it.

I was racing at Nationals when we had the limited number of tyres rule. I actually enjoyed it, it added another method of tuning your car, when would you fit your new tyres? :D

Changing weather conditions was a problem though. Also you had to be organised, you didn't want to be in a queue to sctrutineer your second set of tyres if you were on next! :o

The club did NEED more people to run scrutineering however.

G

G normally talks crap but he is right here. It's great in principal, but not practical.

But would you like to do that for 120 competitiors Rob? Booking in takes a good while, and the racing is always on a tight schedule. I've scruitineered and helped run nationals at times and it is all ready hard work to do for 3 days.

I like things the way they are in off-road at the moment, I choose to treat racing as a competition as I enjoy to compete to race and hopefully beat others, even though I have a small budget and most of my gear is second hand, or bought cheaply - it still brings a nice smile to my face when I beat others who I know have spent alot on their gear :p. (even though it may not be often!)

I don't buy new tyres for every meet, I sometimes go as far as 3 meetings before a new set of boots touch my car. That is mainly down to the fact I can't afford to run a new set of tyres every meeting. But I still try and do what I can.
Sure it annoys me when I know I could of done better if I had the funds to pay for that second set of tyres which I needed to give me the grip I required to get around a wet.. or loose track but I try to make the best out of the situation.. and if I can't then there's always next time.

I'll hopefully be racing in the mid wests this winter, and quite a few other events. I'll be running well used and abused cells, motors that I got cheaply by coincedence, second hand esc, servo and radio gear. I want to do well, and hopefully I will.. but i'm confident that my driving will make up for the lack of 'new' items that I own, of which I belive will not make me any faster even if I did!
The way I see things is that you can take it as far, or as little as you like.. as long as you are in the hobby for your own reasons and are enjoying it.. then nothing else matters.

Cheers Stu, love you.

G

I'm not gay so I don't love you. I do like your lass tho:)

Fair do's.