Homologation, Rules and Scrutineering
 

Just thought I'd open up a debate on these things and see what people think.

For all the classes of racing there are rules, some have homologated aspects and most have some scrutineering. Most of this is probably a good thing.

8th buggies have their tanks checked for capacity - but the only national I've ever been to, I was shocked to see that it ultimately came down to a divide between people who could run 10 minutes and those that couldn't - and therefore had to pit more often.

Things like ground effects and body height rules are sensible in touring cars - and I believe the bodies have to be marked these days. I have to question why they aren't forced to run actual touring car bodies but instead streamlined bathtubs that look nothing like a car I'd want to be seen in! :woot:

When it comes to electric racing - and particularly off-road where my personal interest mainly lays with (hey, I like it all tho), there's a limiting factor called skill.
10th buggy racers are more equal than ever before - despite, not because of, the scrutineering, rules and homologation. When you can always have more power and duration than you could possibly ever use, why homologate?

At BRCA off road 10th nationals the cars are weighed (doesn't everyone run much heavier than the rules anyway?) and put in a box to check dimensions. It's all good. These days the cells are checked for voltage above the norm - it was explained to me that people have been known to cheat by over-cooking their lipo's in some way, but clearly in off road, no one is ever going to do that, because it won't make a difference.
I think now they might claim it to be a safety issue - but standing there revving the car until the voltage drops would have been the same if the car had done a warmup lap anyway.

Lipo bags - are there guidelines for these? My lipo bag I can't see possibly stopping the devastating power of a lipo going off. Maybe that's something that actually should be homologated, and properly tested.

The most dangerous batteries in the entire universe as far as I'm concerned were the last generation of NiMh cells. I'd say these were less predictable and possibly more dangerous than a lipo cell - but there were no charging-in-sac rules for those. I personally witnessed a pack explode in a car that was being carried - it blew the car apart. I also saw a pack explode on someones table - luckly they weren't there, but some people got hit far away by metal from the huge explosion. Some how these were homologated!

So then my main puzzlement is:

Why are motors homologated - what is the advantage in off road?
They were homologated when we were all running brushed motors and it was NOT fair or equal in any way - team guys got motors wound for them, not off the shelf jobs that 'normal people' could buy. So it didn't work then and imho it's not even needed now because it's been made equal by progress.

Batteries - why are they homologated? For sure spec them in a hard case and 7.4v etc - but why do they need homologation.
Homologation for cells was utterly useless when we used nicad's and NiMh's because team guys got better cells than any 'factory team' cells normal folk could buy. The best cells I ever had were old knackered cells from a multiple national winner.
So, given the fact that homologation never made anything really 'fair' - and that technology has made off road about as fair as it gets..... why?

Why are lipo cells which are well known to sometimes swell slightly with normal use, I mean, fractions of a mm, homologated but still illegal? Technically I'd guess that there's plenty of drivers running homologated cells that brand new or well used are technically illegal. Surely if you homologate something, it's legal - but it doesn't work that way.
No one is hurting for run time, no one is hurting for speed or power - certainly it's sensible to express maximum sizes but these shouldn't be down to microns and drivers shouldn't have to endanger themselves by dremeling their volatile batteries until they meet the size requirements - even though they bought the cells that were on the approved list.

So - what good is homologation when homologated cells are illegal due to manufacturing tolerences. And why is it legal to weaken the case by filing it down to meet the size. Who is gaining an advantage, really.

One of the few advantages some sponsored drivers may have these days is in the software on their ESC's. They will get the latest developments before anyone but this isn't regulated at all. One area that you could argue should be homologated but isn't - I wouldn't argue for it, but it shows how behind the times some of these things are.

I think there's a lot of daft things personally that need modernising. How can you possibly have a rule that states your 'open cage' buggy should be a realistic representation and have a driver figure............ but then you allow a cab forward shell? Yes - you can run a shell no possible scale humanoid would ever fit in that looks nothing like a buggy but more like a spaceship - and you can have painted opaque windows if you like.
Hey - but don't forget that driver figure in your cage body that needs to be based upon genuine desert racing buggies... etc. Please bring photo evidence that this is based upon...

Body shell holes - how can you say they need to be defined by the manufacturer - if I buy a shell and modify it then I become the manufacturer. Same as if I'd backpoured the body, re-moulded it, made a fake website and declare that everwhere is a vent. Common sense works better - if it's outrageous and clearly dangerous or looks stupid then you can ban it on-site.

I'm in it for the love - rules, control tyres and fair racing are all good. I think things are well behind the times though. Having your wheel nuts slightly interfere with a size checking box makes ab-so-lutely no difference on the track but you win the worlds with that and you'd be disqualified. Silly.

Just my opinions really. I thought a sensible thread on these sort of regulations whether ROAR, IFMAR, EFRA or BRCA etc are worth discussion since I can't be the only one to think some of these things don't help the sport from a professional, and certainly hobbyist level.


Note:
These are just ideas or opinions, don't cry.

I think the homoligation of cells and motors is basically to keep us safe.
The things on the homoligation lists are tested for safety purposes and the added to the list, i think this is a good thing.

When cab forward first came to light in 8th it was not allowed because it was not a true representation of the scale class, i think that was silly. I beleive cab forward has disadvantages aswell as advatanges and you should be able to choose whatever you want.

I'm not sure how a motor isn't safe - there are rules for motors - there doesn't need to be homologation. Homologation is there to make it fair - it didn't work, and now is outdated imho.

Homologated lipos blow up on very rare occasions - how is that safer than another cell that very rarely blows up. Homologated lipo's are also not by virtue of homologation legal to use at sanctioned events. By admission of the BRCA - manufacturers don't keep to their homologated design - why is that XXXXXX lipo that's ROAR approved and is exactly the same cell you use branded ZZZZZZ unsafe suddenly?

Is my Hobbywing ESC unsafe because I'm not running a branded Speedpassion?

Homologation isn't a safety issue - it's there to make the racing fair. When was the last time a motor without the manufacturers name on the end cap unsafe?

Safety is NOT the reason, equal competition IS - so therefore it's useless. Just my opinions though. :woot:

If thats the case, then i agree with you.

Freedom of choice should be the way.

I'd have to agree with Jimmy.
Why do we need motors to adhere to a certain list? I'm on a fairly tight budget as a racer, I dont run nationals and will be the first to stick my hand up and say I'm not the best driver in the world. So why should I be forced to buy a motor off the Homologation list for £60-£100 when it makes more sense to my pocket to get one thats not on the list for £25

I do understand the need for some scrutiny when it comes lipos as it could be dangerous to others if a badly swollen and over charged lipo goes pop

I wonder why their is a radio compound at Nationals when most are on 2.4?

It has been proven by the warriors of oOple.com - that if all those 110 drivers not racing at the time had their radios on, no one would be able to bind their cars. :lol: - not much chance of that happening, but there's certainly a limit to 2.4ghz!

I don't know of the brca checking for swolen packs - never heard of that. They don't check for over charged cells either - they only check voltage for reasons of cheating. Yes it's dangerous to try get the volts up, but that's for stock racing, not modified off road. If the cells are over-voltage it makes absolutely no difference to discharge them slightly at the race control. When they do that, it can only be explained as a fair-racing rule, not as a safety rule.
At what point is a stressed lipo safe or not safe just because it's being checked before going on the track. It drops voltage as soon as it's used whether that's on the bench at scrutineering or on the warmup lap - the only way you could excuse it as a safety issue is to immediately ban the person from the meeting for having a lipo that's over the normal voltage. That would force everyone to 'be safe' and make sure their charger was working correctly / the pack was safe.

I don't for a second believe there's any safety in taking an overcooked lipo to a tent full of people so they can stick pokey bits in it to see if it's about to blow up. You either ban people or you stop checking.

Personally I've never in my life seen a lipo blow up - I've seen plenty of NiMh's blow up and it is scary. But if my lipo was dangerous I'd MUCH rather it blow up on the track than in a tent full of people looking closely at it - and they are ONLY checking before you go on the track remember. There's absolutely nothing safe about it unless you confiscate packs (I'd wrestle it back if it were mine) or ban people.

Maybe I think about things too much - but I see sillyness then I call it silly.

i agree with Jimmy,

unless these cells under take extra safety tests such as a drop test or puncture test, which i don't believe they do? though i do think they need to police the hard case lipo rule but there should definitely be more cells on the lists.

what makes a mockery of it all is when you get 2 cells both same make both same model only difference being the C rating or mAh but ones on the list and the other isn't :confused:

As for motors at least in 1/10 off road class anyways, everyone uses different timed motors so why police it? if one guy can use a 3.5t and another a 13.5t in the same race and both are legal does it really make a difference if its a list or not?

i see motors as quite simple they spin and the car goes forward, the cleaver part is the ESC.

(side note tip for people on budget i think the Speed passion sportsman is on the list probably the cheapest on there about £30 it spins.)

rant over

Have to agree too,

My pet hate with the lipo/motor list is it prices out a lot of club racers i've known from taking the step up from club racing into BRCA Regionals and onwards, purely because they have to spend extra to buy something which does the same job.

The lists 10/15 years ago were also to keep costs down for competitors, capping costs made no difference to safety and i'll admit we used to pretty much fry nicads on chargers till they were boiling to get punch out of them to keep up with those team cells and expert hand wound motors!

The bodyshell rules are laughable, surely air holes keep things cooler and help prevent meltdowns

Lipo bags/containers should be homologated/rated by proper destruction testing under realistic conditions... for the safety of everyone if we have to use them. Is it better to have a random unpredicted burning bag in the middle of pits or to be able to see a lipo swelling and being able to get it out of human reach asap before it goes up?

I did find it funny at an undisclosed meeting/venue last year when told to scrutineer ourselves, funnily enough we were all legal that round!

i agree about the homologation issues. the demon cells i use were listed when i bought them, but reading the rules are now no longer legal as they are not on the list. yes they are five years old, but have been looked after, all work perfectly, have no swelling etc. and still have plenty of punch. why should an average club driver be forced to buy new gear to do a national....... Also the cells in the majority of lipo packs come from a very limited number of factories, most expensive approved cells are likely to be of the same make and model as those used in cheaper unapproved packs with no difference in build or quality other than the plastic case. as far as motors, i can see reasons for homologation for limited classes like 13.5 or 10.5 to create a more equal playing field, but is pretty pointless when there is software around for speed controls that can make a 13.5 piss all over a 6.5 turn motor. open classes shouldnt be homologated. i use the cheap ezrun motors at club, why not allow people to use them at national level, they give no advantage, just work perfectly well enough for an average driver, they just lack a sticker with a make on that adds £50 to the price. anything that cuts costs has got to be good for the sport, and good for clubs holding national events as more people are likely to be encouraged to give it a try

nearly forgot, a lipo bag is nowhere near as safe as a metal ammunition box for containing a fire, so why are charging containers superior to a lipo bag not allowed?? rather than homologate the bags wouldnt it be better to put a fire rating on them similar to the method used with building materials, ie a time that the bag should contain a fire for

I think a full metal durango chassis would contain a lipo fire better than a lipo sac - why isn't it mandatory that everyone runs a full-metal durango?

Seriously though - if you're going to make a rule, follow through. Organise it properly and talk to a manufacturer who'll give a bulk discount. Everyone racing a sanctioned event gets a nomex fireproof bag for a fiver, or a metal container etc.. Everyone has a stamped approved ifmar/efra/ whatever bag that's actually been tested by someone with the skills to blow up some stuff - and is confident enough that it'll not contain the fire for 30 seconds but for EVER, nothing safe about charging a lipo in a tent whilst you're not there and having it burn a hole in your table and down to that acetone container. Ker-boom.

Safety doesn't end with 0.1v of cell discharging in a crowded tent or a flimsy lipo sac. I'm an all or nothing guy - either do it properly or not at all. It's a waste of everyones time to run a middle ground that neither protects nor serves the racers.

exactly
 

Jimmy, well said.
I personally feel so many of the "rules" that are still in play are so out dated and pointless.
Safety yes. of course.
But the rest of them are silly. For off rd 10th electric, as thats what i race mainly. SO many rules are just silly. As Jimmy mentioned many, width, weight etc.
Motors and lipos are all pretty much made the same/similar way as are most ESC's.
The BRCA/ROAR etc etc have been doing it the way they want for far to long. IMHO.

But, will it change? hmmmmmm..............

The "LIST" thats approved, is for the BRCA etc to decide what they put in or dont, and if no one sends it to them and pays for it to be approved etc, then its out. Does this make it unsafe? nope, not at all. I usedsome nanotech cells for 9 months, cheaper than the branded "listed" ones and performed great, no swelling bla bla and still not on the list. they were not unsafe. just not listed.
Motors as well. same thing.

Its all a bit to "the establishment" to me.

Regionals, they scrutineered the cars for weight and width. not one person removed the shell to look at motors, esc, lipos etc etc. If its a safety issue, then i will mention one VERY IMPORTANT THING.,

It says somewhere that all buggies are to have quick release lipo/battery straps, in the BRCA rules. hmmmm, I know of many many cars that do NOT have this. so, they should NOT be allowed on a brca insured track, and thats just about all clubs i think. BUT, No one says a word about that.

Seems that only when it suits them are things looked into.

Just my thoughts/ranting.......... :D:woot:

Homologation is essentially a tax on the importer/distributor/vendor to give the product a "fit for competition" stamp. Being on the list means more sales, but also pumping money into the BRCA for the right to be on the list. It effectively keeps the prices of a product bumped up to pay for the inspection (actually I just checked the cost, and it's far less than I thought).
Regarding ROAR vs EFRA and BRCA approval, etc. The ROAR testing spec is far more stringent, so it is safe to assume that a typical ROAR or EFRA passed hard case pack is perfectly safe to use for club racing (Gens ace/Hobbyking Turnigy, etc), but hasn't contributed funds into the BRCA coffers so isn't on the list for those regional/national events. To be fair there is nothing wrong with pumping money into the BRCA as it helps fund the events, racing and hobby we enjoy. But the lists are effectively another funding stream for the BRCA, not safety, though I'm sure they would argue otherwise. In fairness, if you look at any other organised body, like a sporting association, national group of clubs with a common interest, or annual subscription "club" , they have formulated a set of rules and regs to follow, mostly for insurance or liability purposes. I'll correct myself then, the homologation list(s) are essentially for liability shift, rather than an individuals safety.

Jimmy you are spot on with regards speedo/ESC software, but a guess the blinky lists are a fair indication of the "approved" or passed as fair devices available.

In pointers otherwise would be too long of a post

There has to be a list for sanctioned events otherwise could you imagine what could be available at £20 - £30
Like pointed out there could be nothing wrong with the lower end electrical stuff BUT it would be a licence to actually produce cheap rubbish and then IT WOULD FOR SURE BE ISSUES WITH SAFETY

Not all Lipos are from similar sources - I run Orion and they are specially made by Orion for our sport

I agree there should be some sort of marking or standards for Lipo sacks

Some of the stuff that Jimmy has pointed out (the axle being a fraction too big through a wheel nut) is of course very silly to say the least and yes common sense should be the cure

It's really down to the writers of the standards.

They take an existing standard, and as technology advances, they update to still cover the old tech and add in the new tech, and try to account for the differences in the best way they know how. Which is usually not very well.
As the new technology (the electronics bits really) is so different from what you had before. So when the old tech drops out of circulation you are left with rules that don't really apply, or are written so vaguely that you could drive a bus through the loopholes.
Doesn't help that a lot of homologation standards are written by the people involved (drivers/committee members/keen parents), who gather a lot of information from reviews and manufacturing blurb, with a smattering of technical data, rather than being written by people who write standards.

Whats needed is a wholesale rewriting, from scratch.

(i deal with homologation standards written by government committees, they are far far far far (far) worse than the BRCA/ROAR/etc standards, and have long lasting (negative) impact on what we are allowed to do.)

Have to agree with Jimmy.

Homologated items are much more a discrimination in terms of costs than a fair racing rule.

For exemple, how many people do not participate to races because they can have 3 nano-tech for the price of one homologated pack?

There should be more racers participating without these nonsense homologations

Yet the biggest moan is Orion are the ones that swell, and are you sure there not made by kokham, they definatly used to be.

As a side note, Finnish 2013 season rules for batteries go as follows (roughly translated):

either EFRA- or ROAR-approved hardcase battery or a similar model from the same manufacturer with a maximum capacity of 7000 mAh

I'd be *very* surprised if Orion are big enough to actually make their own batteries. Its an utterly gargantuan investment to set up a factory to make the cells themselves.
One issue we've got at work is that everywhere is rapidly running out of manufacturing capacity to make the damn things. And no one can/will pay to set up a new factory. (And even the small players in this business are massive)

:confused: surely if batteries are ROAR approved why cant they be used for BRCA meetings, as the last post goes if it's ROAR or EFRA then they should be legal??

Companies aren't in the habit of making things to blow up - and if we're talking about lipo safety, who says which lipo is going to blow. Expensive, cheaper, cheapest. Probably all the same. I've never seen one blow. I've killed a couple of packs by driving past their low voltage - never mind, no drama.
I've bought cheap lipo batteries for laptops - they didn't blow my knee off yet. I am not sure what all the aspects of lipo homologation is - but I am fairly certain they aren't taken to a bomb range and rated for their explosiveness!

I saw super expensive team nimh cells injure people - so how was that safe due to homologation. Wasn't.

Am i right in thinking to change things
1,needs to be proposed then seconded for brca agm
2,people need to turn up and vote.

I assumed that they were checked for dimensions, charged at a set rate, discharged at a set rate then taken apart to check quality of internals for homologation?

If cheaper lipos were homologated then it may wake the more expensive 'manufacturers' question how much value their sticker adds in order to sell them.

Would be interesting to see a reliable test done with the cheaper stuff compared to the brand names we pay for.

Maybe we need an oOple Stig, a tamed race driver that can do comparison tests on the track with consistant driving to compare performance!

If you ask me a lipo sack is a complete waste of time and money, purely because the Velcro "seal" cannot close properly when your charging wires are going through it! All you would get if the lipo went up is a space shuttle sized flame shooting out the side of the bag, probably straight into your crotch :cry:

I would rather be able to see the battery charging and give it a quick feel every now and again to make sure it's not getting warm

What does roar and EFRA approved even mean - it's not for safety, it's only for fair competition surely? But in off road there's no advantage by having your lipo 0.1mm oversize and overcooking lipo's on purpose to get an edge? Really? I don't believe it.

Cell rules by oOple:

Hard cased
7.4v
end.

I saw a lipo fail in a branded lipo sack. It just melted it.

The lipo sack saved nothing.

I shall reply to this when i get home, put on my tin hat and bullshit deflectors.....

From the perspective of someone who last raced 'properly' in the days of brushed motors and 'Intellect Bang' nimh and who is considering a (slight) return:

In the labour intensive days of handwound, hand dyno'd motors and carefully matched packs of cells, homologation served as a useful cost cap for high end equipment though (as Jimmy points out) it still didn't ensure any kind of equality between clubman and team driver.

Now we actually have that parity, in as much as we can all enjoy more power 'off the shelf' than we can feasibly use, it appears that homologation is quite the opposite. If you're one of the limited approved range then anyone wanting to do more than club level racing has to come to you. Having a captive market means you can charge more for your rebadged Chinese kit than otherwise identical, non-approved stuff.

It does remind me a little of the racketeering you see in mob movies, but the BRCA will only test the items they're sent. Perhaps there should be more onus on distributors to submit more of their applicable gear, not just the fancy brands with bigger margins?

The requirement for products to be 'commercially available' is sensible, after all the BRCA has a vested interest in protecting UK hobby shops where possible. In this internet age of overseas wholesale operations and their UK warehouses, defining 'commercially available' could get interesting though!

With tens of thousands of club racers and bashers using 'off brand' equipment without issues then the 'safety' argument of homologation is pretty weak. Put it this way, any racing I do in 2013 will likely be at club level only with kit that costs way less than the national driver on the next table, yet with no discernible performance penalty.

Jeez, do people really have no idea how the BRCA is run and how the rules are formed? I will no doubt repeat this time and agin, but there is now 'us' and 'them', the BRCA is run entirely by racers just like you and me, except they are prepared to put their free time into helping the hobby instead of moaning about it online.
If you want to change anything at all in the rules then all you have to do is put in a proposal and vote on it at the AGM. If you can argue your case and the majority agree then your proposal will get passed. If you can't be bothered to do that then you can't really complain because others have made a different decision.

Just like the old days of 1/10th buggies. Limited battery capacity meant you either fitted a lower wind and drove steady for five minutes, or you put a softer wind in there, geared up and drove harder. In 1/8th limited tank capacity means you either tune the engine to run leaner and driver more carefully or you run hard to make up the extra stop. It's not whether they could or couldn't, it's their choice whether to stretch out fuel stops or not.

Because the rules have limited what they can do with the bodies. If you think they look bad now just think what they would look like without an restrictions on body design.
If your complaint is that they don't look realistic, why aren't you also complaining that buggies look even further from the real thing. If touring cars should be running scale replica shells then buggies should have live axles and a cage like the Axial Wraith, not something that bears no resemblance to the real thing.

Because the drivers in the class decided amongst themselves at the BRCA AGM to only use parts on the BRCA Electric Board list. No class is forced to use BRCA homologated motors and batteries, several classes don't use the homologation lists. The lists are to ensure relative equality between all the various brands. Yes there are minor differences, but it stops someone sticking a 17.5T label on a 15.5T motor and then it being the only motor to run in the 17.5 class.

If you want a free for all just propose it and vote on it at the AGM.

You are assuming that a small increase in battery voltage won't make a difference in all other classes. If you run a spec touring car class then that little extra voltage will make your car go a little bit faster. When qualifying results are measured in tenths or hundredths of a second every little counts. If there isn't a limit where do you stop overcharging? 8.45v, 8.6v? We have all seen the videos on youtube of what happens when you overcharge a lipo, it just reduces the chance of accidents.


I would ask around the 1/12th racers then. They have seen several lipo fires in their pits.

A nimh cell will go bang and make a loud noise. Nimh have always been fairly safe until Intellect really took the piss with the rules, designing cells that the process of soldering a pack together usually meant you melted the safety vent. All the cells I have seen that were pretty destructive were Intellects. Most will just pop the cap off, some will throw their contents across the room, but that's it, done. it might be a bit warm but nothing more is going to happen.

With lipos they are self sustaining, once started it will keep on burning at very high temperatures until it has expended all its energy. The point of a lipo sack isn't to control an explosion or to be left burning on your pit table, it buys you some time when the pack ignites. For most lipos in planes and helicopters the standard lipo sack is easily able to contain the fire. We tend to use somewhat more powerful batteries.

The 1/12th section does require buckets of sand to be in the pits at every meeting. Being indoors there is considerably more danger than most off road tracks. If a lipo catches fire it is covered in the sand to smother it then left until it burns itself out, so keeping the toxic smoke contained as well.

Because the Electric Board was asked to homologate motors by the BRCAs members, so the motors should be more or less equal in performance. Just because off road doesn't need motor limits doesn't mean other section don't either.

As off road have more power than grip, unlike most other classes, there isn't an advantage apart from making sure the motors are commercially available. If you don't think there's a need for it propose it and vote on it at the AGM.

To ensure we have a level playing field and to ensure the batteries meet international safety standards. Lipos submitted for homologation have to include proof they have passed safety tests. It also ensures they are commercially available, a free for all could mean we go back to manufacturer 'specials' for team drivers that you can't buy in the shops.

Because there is a maximum size and the manufacturers should take that into consideration. Lets say a pack that swells 2mm is allowed this 'tolerance'. So, the manufacturer makes a new pack which includes this 2mm oversize tolerance in their pack. They get extra capacity in there, which means a higher average voltage for many on road classes. Then everyone else follows suit and we end up back where we started, just with packs now 2mm too big to fit in most cars.

That's Trinitys current defence over their D3.5 17.5T motors. ROAR has found it uses oversize wire which explains why it's the fastest motor in the class. Trinity is complaining because they managed to get it through homologation months ago but now it has been retested it's found to be illegal.

Same with lipos. Lets say you are running a class with a 4200mah capacity limit, and a manufacturer has a pack homologated. If the manufacturer then increases the size slightly while keeping the same label on it, you now have a pack that is going to outperform all other lipos in that class.

The manufacturers have a maximum size allowed and they should take that into consideration when designing the packs. The old nimh cells had a maximum size and they would still be within that size after swelling, until Intellect built their cells deliberately oversize and all the racers went out and bought them because they had a very slightly higher average voltage.

Technically ESC software is regulated, there are very strict requirements on what ESCs can and cannot do in blinky mode. Orca were caught out with dodgy software and were given a blanket ban of ROAR races for six months.

Because the rule was written when we had the Hirobo Zerda, Mugen Bulldog and AYK Viper. An open cage buggy has no body at all, just an open cage.
That choice is down to the drivers creating the rules, every other class actually specifies clear windows. If you want to go scale then you would end up banning every buggy body available. It would be nicer if buggies looked more like the real thing, but you aren't going to get the drivers to vote for it.

At the AGM last year the rules were changed, there are now specific maximum sizes for holes for cooling. The manufacturer can make as big a cut line as you would want but the drivers voted to change it this year.

Okay, lets allow a car with slightly longer axles to pass scrutineering. Then what is to stop another manufacturer making their buggy wider, because you can't argue that it's not allowed while allowing someone else to run with a slightly oversize car. If you want cars with wheel nuts catching in the box then propose and vote to increase the maximum width at the AGM. Then everyone will be shimming their wheels out to the new width.

You don't. Nothing in the rules state that off road must use the EB lists. It's the off road racers who decided to do so when they voted to use the EB lists. If you want to allow everything then, again, propose to drop the use the EB lists at the AGM and vote on it.

F1 allows any 21.5T motor as long as the manufacturer had homologated the same can in any other class. 1/12th and GT12 allow any cheap lipo as long as it is commercially available and it does not need homologating. Bikes allow just about anything motor and battery wise.

And if you aren't running nationals or regionals then what motor and lipo you are allowed is entirely down to the club and has nothing to do with the BRCA. there is nothing in the rules that state that clubs must follow BRCA rules, that is their individual choice.

Because they are no longer commercially available. To allow your pack creates a loophole for manufacturers to create 'special' team packs for those classes where batteries do make a difference. In on road you will be nowhere with a 5 year old pack in your car.

Because they aren't commercially available in the UK. I know they are cheap and lots of us have them, but none of us have walked into a UK shop and bought it over the counter. Every motor and battery needs a UK distributor to submit it, so they can prove they are genuine with customer backup in case anything goes wrong.

As an example, what if a lipo caught fire when at home, like what happened with Gil Losi. Your insurance company will pay up and then chase the UK distributor for the money they have paid out. If there is no official UK distributor then the importer is you and you would end up picking up the bill.

from the BRCA rules:

Don't ask me what that means, but I'm sure there will be a physical damage test in there.

and just about all the 12th lipo fires have been user error, chargers defaulting to nimh after a power out, so why are chargers not regulated? i asked for the brca to list the "unsafe" chargers, but they declined!

Actually any container designed for holding lipos while charging is allowed, it doesn't have to be a sack.

It does mean an ammo box isn't allowed though as it wasn't designed for battery charging, but you can always get a Turnigy battery bunker

It must be designed for charging lipos otherwise there would be nothing preventing someone deciding a Tupperware box is good enough, unfortunately you've always got to legislate for idiots.

what goes on the lists are decided by the importers, not the bRCA. Anything that meets the rules that is submitted by the distributor will go on the list. If the distributor decides not to submit it then it doesn't go on the list. Nothing the BRCA can do about that.

So, which shop in the UK can I walk into and buy Turnigy cells in? Up until the last few months you could only order them from Hong Kong. Should we allow anything as long as you can buy it in one shop anywhere in the world? If Hobbyking submit them and show they are commercially available in the UK then they will get approved, in fact recently they have got some Gens Ace cells approved.

You do know that both you and I control what you call 'the establishment'. The BRCA committee are just a bunch of racers who have decided to help support the hobby and their sole purpose is to do what we the members tell them to do.

Then you know what to do, bring it up at the AGM and get the rules changed or clarified.

Bang on.

If something is on the list then you know the importer has proven they are responsible for any liability from any accidents with the products they sell. The 'tax' on the importers from covering the costs of homologation is very quickly recouped in sales.

as you can probably tell, I've got some free time today.:lol:

Mark,
What do you mean Orion is the biggest moan regarding swollen packs?

Orion Batteries are not made by Kokham since the 45c packs was introduced. They are in a new factory that Oscar manages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8i9TfubcSE

Seen many posts saying that the Orion high c ratings have swollen, and after I advised em to contact you at Orion uk, they were told basically not interested. One was in fb page Louth model car club