Summer 2013 Season
 

Summer 2013 Season

Hi all… It has been commented on that our championship is based on attendance rather than performance, so with this in mind the committee would like to propose the summer season is run to the attached guide…

Have a read and let me know what you think…

As I see it the situation isn't any different. Only now, this rule will allow someone to compete equally in touring and GT12 with the chance to win both if they do well enough. There are still drop scores rounds as we have always had, so you can miss a few weeks and still have a decent chance in the championship.
Possibly one issue with attendance influencing the championship result is really due to the points scoring system. It is extremely difficult to make up a deficit due to lack of attendance because the winner takes home 30 points and second is so close in points - 29/30 = 97% of a win. I'm personally ok with how the current rules work, but if you wanted to improve this aspect the better method would be to increase the bonus for a win, F1 style... So the points from 1st to 5th might run 30, 22, 18, 15, 13 or something.

Sorry to say it all seems a total nonsense to me and can't see what advantages it will bring. Although the championship is not the all to end all, it does add a little spice to the club racing. So why allow half the season racing for nothing, the only ones that gain any advantage from this are those racing both classes. If you don't want it to be an attendance championship, then make it the best 18-20 scores out of the 26 rounds.

Don't agree with the F1 scoring system either, sorry LR. Although in principle its a good idea and works well in other race programs, it doesn't suit our club racing as those at the bottom would never get any points and they as much as those at the top, want to finish the championship above like for like racers. A lot of championships give an extra point for FTD, why don't we take it a little further and give an extra point for winning your final, which would be yet another incentive for those down in the C or D finals.

Sorry if I sound a bit negative, but I think it could be done better to suit everyone:)

Could someone point me in the direction of the GERCC’s own GT12/Mardave rules, as I'd be interested.

I think the idea behind it was so that for those who can't make all that many weeks due to other commitments (work, family etc) they would still be able to feature In the champs and could sort work/fam around the weeks that would just be pratice nights for them. So making it fair on everyone and not just who can make most weeks.

I can't see how the only ones to gain an advantage are people doing both classes cos there nothing stopping people from doing both classes each week currently, it's just a very busy night so but can be done.

Doing this format would also allow nights to just try things and pratice and not endanger any champ points.

Another advantage would be that cars which don't meet one of the champ classes (TC or GT12) would be able to run freely with the class of cars that isnt having a championship night, therefor the racing for the champs would only have like for like cars in their races making the racing cleaner and fair.

And with the extra point for winning there finals wouldn't really work as currently GERCC work slightly differently to most clubs and the qualifying is worked on a FTD basis but the finals are also done in the same way so someone in the B final could win overall of they got the fastest time. Not sure how many peopl aware of this mind.

From my prospective it would be a disaster!!!

I'd almost bet my house on the fact that all the weeks I could make it would be snooring carp rounds and thus I'd simply stay away as the drivers I'd want to race against would be concentrating on that not GT12.

Leave it as is, let people make the choice what to run. I've no vested interest as at best I could probably do 3 weeks in a 5 week month so no chance of featuring in the championship either way .... not even if I TQ and win every week, which of course I intend to do ;):p

To be honest, I am currently sat on the fence and unsure. I have had a think, and here are my (as far as possible) subjective thoughts. It is a bit of an essay, but summit to think about...


Championship every week
Pros
- Competitive racing every week in all classes.
- No matter who turns up when, all will be fighting.
- Getting monies worth every week.
- When focussing on one class, potentially greater chance of beating those spreading focus on two classes.

Cons
- Potentially more expensive - using 'best' tyres every week, for example.
- Less willingness/ability to experiment - with only 2 qualifying races and one final, why change setup and risk a race result?
- When using 2 classes, manic race night every week.

Alternative weeks are championship
Pros
- More willingness to play with setup, experiment a bit more, try new things.
- Potentially cheaper as 'lower quality' parts could be used, such as tyres as it isn't as competitive.
- Less stressful for those racing two classes, as one class is more relaxed.
- Those willing to race 'other' types of cars will be able to race, and in a race which will not affect other championship positions.

Cons
- Every other week could be less fun/less competitive.
- Will this return racing to who has the deepest pockets, as those with greater ability to experiment will benefit most?
- Fewer competitive nights over season will be discounted.

Questions - these aren't weighted just to think about.
- Drivers are worried that they will only be able to attend nights that are non championship - does this matter, as if they are only racing occasional nights, they will not be competitive in the current championship operation anyway?
- Is another idea just to discount more out of the current championship operation, rather than placing specifics dates which do/do not count?
- Is this likely to affect a certain range of drivers - ie, do youngsters/beginners care (Y - they like to be in a championship/N - they just want to race)? Or is this aimed at those who are able to/wanting to experiment for nationals/bigger race weekends?
- Will either choice have an affect on attracting new members/retaining members?
- What happens when a new class of racing appears, or one of these dies out? Will it just be one week on/off or three week rotational cycles? I know this is referring specifically to the Summer 2013 season, but to think about.

God, I am too exciting for my own good looking at that lol...

What I meant by my statement Baldy was that if this came to be then you would lose some drivers that couldn't make it every week from the club altogether. Why would you go to a club you couldn't race people of a similar ability because they were racing alternating classes? For me it couldn't give a monkeys about the championship, I just want to race against people like Gunter & have no interest in being bashed about with the less experienced drivers, no offence meant to them.
When will this be decided? Don't want to spend more money until it is in case I can no longer race the class.

Please “don’t panic” guys no changes have been implemented.

This Pol / Request has originated from you the Members and the Committee have had a look and hence the proposal.

We have drivers who would like more practice time…Sometimes it is nice to be able to try something different without worrying about your points.

We have Drivers who cannot come every week…Some drivers feel penalised as they are unable to come every week and the current system does not allow for them to be counted..

We have drivers frustrated by outlaw cars…Drivers have complained that they are taken out by cars not fighting for championship points.

As people have asked the questions it is the decision of the Committee to review. You are our business and you have the choice to air your opinions and these will be taken into account.

I am defo against this.

If I can understand this correctly, the main purpose of the change is to allow people "free" weeks to tweak their car without the risk of losing championships points. As a % of club racers, how many are considering small changes week in week out? 10%, 20% max!
The most simple way to provide people with an opportunity to "tweak/setup" their car would be to reduce number of Championship weeks.

So instead of best 40 /46 make it the best 30/46. That means the weeks you have reduced your cars performance through "tweaking/trials/change of setup" the results won't count against your championship points.

Like JMMN and RogerM pointed out, not everyone races to "win" the championship anyway and still turn up because the racing is competitive.
Take away teh competitiveness and you will lose racers.

Despite the club being busy as of late, come Summer numbers reduce considerably so we should be making hay as they say.

The current system is NOT broke!! Ok it could do with a Tweak, but we don't have to completely change the format to suit only 10%/20% of racers.

I agree that this poll is a great idea, but we must offer the opportunity to vote on a race night when most people are in attendance

I vote NO :p

Roger don’t worry ill still race both cars every week, TBH if anything id only run my TC every other week during the summer but still do the stox every week so you’ll still have me there and many others im sure. (just to clarify every week with have both classes running incase that’s been mis-understood by any1)

This as Shane said is only an idea because a few people have said to me and him, it’s to many weeks and they don’t contend in the champs and would like to.(or words to that effect)

Also allows cheaper weeks as baldy said using older tyres (in my case outdoor tyres on my TC to save me buying so many carpet ones)

At the end the day this was only put on hear to see the views of people and I personally thought it made sense it didn’t hinder any1, make it fair on the people that can’t come as often as others and I didn’t really see the downside. It would allow people who currently would like to run 2 classes but don’t due to it being busy have a go at running another class. And the comment bout it would only benefit the people running two classes….. I can’t see its going to make much difference if someone dose 1 class or 2 classes in a night they still same driver and that’s the main part. If things start braking then that’s maybe where it gets hard for people doing two classes.

Can I just ask how is this format going to affect the competitiveness of the racing? Surely it’s going to improve it as there will be no longer times when non champ cars are in your race and cost you time/points.

If everyone don’t like it and just wants less counting rounds then I guess that will be what happens but I cant see how it suites the 10/20% of members it suites all those that cant make enough weeks to norm contend in the champs which is the majority as only about 6/7 people norm get enough rounds to compete.

And im sure this will also be held on the night with a voting box or whatever but on hear comments such as above can also be expressed.

Hi Everyone

I agree with some many of everyones comments. I liked the idea of greater differnece in points between win, 2nd 3rd 4th etc etc. and I liked the idea of extra point - although as someone mentioned its prob not fair but would add an extra little dimension.
I would also suggest maybe a bonus point for fastest lap - just because I want them to implement this in F1 :)

My personal preference is edging in favour of the new proposal as I have two cars. I tried racing both but it serioulsy handicaps both classes. and when you race, marshall, race, marshall and then have to try find time to fix your car or change something it gets too stressful to bother doing it. So i stopped after a while. then didnt get enough rounds in for the GT12 champs.

would be nice to concentrate on one car a week - would still race both but i would only need to worry about changing one car. This would free up a bit more time and be less stressful so would be worth it. therefore I would race GT12 as well as TC whereas previously I had decided to quit GT12. I think the racing would still be competitive, it would still be timed and people would still want to win.
I would think (or though may be wrong) the only people who would miss any races would be people who race two cars and need to miss the odd race.

that practice night was good and we didnt even have lap timing or arranged races - so maybe this is what prompted the proposed changes - people said to me too it was good to try stuff out. It would be even better if the night still had organisation to it.

Would give everyone a chance to race any car they liked too - and would give people who race non-championship classes a chance to race against people of thier own ability rather than dumping them in their own 'mixed' class.

One point I do agree with is excluding non-championship class cars in amoungst a championship class on a championship night.

The last thing you want is your race ruined by someone who aint even officially 'competing' against you.

I'm not blaming anyone racing another class as when you have cars of the wrong class in your race they have different areas where they are faster/slower so again more likely to collide and ruin one-anothers race. Just as likely to happen other way aroud as well - but usually you find someone competing in a championship should be being more cautious as they dont want to lose points. whereas someone turning up adhoc will be more gung ho.

Also, other classes of car dont have restrictions so their cars will likely be faster - but this isnt necessarily matched with the drivers ability - so you have a mixed ability which also doesnt help.

I suppose this is an argument for the new proposed rules as the mixed classes can be run on non-champ nights without it mattering quite AS much.

you wont get any Lovell strops :) hah ;)

Good to hear ... would need to find a better way of seeding drivers though as I can see problems there also.

Who would get a top heat spot, somebody who was running 2 seconds a lap slower than you but doing well in the championship due to scoring every possible time or somebody on your pace who has not scored well due to the championship weeks not being possible race evenings for them?

If you give the faster driver the top heat place the championship contender would no doubt be upset (I can understand that).
If you give the championship contender the place the faster driver will most likely cause chaos in the heat below as he tries to avoid the others meaning neither they or anybody else in that heat, including the other championship regulars, have a good nights racing either (I can understand that too)

It's a tough call either way!!

Yep I totally agree, the seeding is abit dodgy im not 100% on the best way.

Currently it’s done by each driver having an ability put aside there driver profile which is done using the previous years AVG points (I THINK). So for instance sum1 who turns up once and wins both quail and final will get an ability of 50 (we do it out of 50 because of the number of drivers which I guess will need to change with the larger numbers.)as there AVG is 30 out of 30. So my AVG in TC I think is 28.57 I think OJ got higher and Mark will have higher as he done better in TC than me last year. So my ability is 48.

Each driver has a different profile for each different class so my GT12 was started this week as it was my 1st time so I should of really started dead last….. but my ability from my TC was used to put me in a more appropriate place (3rd I think I started)

With the number of new / different drivers turning up all the time its hard for race control to sort every1 so there may be a few weeks for people to find there feet see where they end up and then adjust there ability accordingly.

I personally think it would be carnage putting the faster drivers in the bottom heat and wouldn’t be nice for anyone but then I have invested interest in that so its up to the majority I guess. I think the seeding should be on people’s current years AVG points score rather than the previous years or only use the previous years for the first few weeks (or when someone turns up who not been there for the starting weeks of the champs) and then you will always be racing with the people of your ability.

For example, If I missed the 1st 4 weeks I could still do enough rounds to win so it would be unfair to make me start last because others have had a head start? That’s penalising the people who cant make many rounds such as yourself, you’d have to always start last as you don’t make many weeks.

Hopefully that’s how it currently works that’s how im aware it works but baldy might be able to shead some more light on it

Just leave it as it is :p

I think it is too prescriptive to say week 1 = touring car and week 2 = supastox. It is not particularly flexible if you've got other commitments.

I think we should aim for-

- significantly reducing the number of points scoring rounds that count
- adding extra points for fastest qualifying laps
- slightly staggering the points system to reward first/second/third place, this will help with the final points tally i.e you wont just get someone who turns up every week near the top of the championship

I am against having uncompetitive weeks. By having competitive racing every week you will ensure everyone is striving to improve their position in the championship whenever they turn up which seems fair to me.

Grayslick talks some sense. I agree with all of that.

Extra points for fastest qualifying laps as in who gets FTD gets a extra point which is done in alot of RC racing or for literally the fastest single lap?

Not sure it should be done for the fastest single lap as this sort of promotes doing 1 silly lap risking others cars and going abit wild. FTD I'd agree with tho

Yes, FTD would be better although like Markygia, I like the idea of a fastest lap from the heats being awarded too but appreciate this might cause other problems in the heats with drivers slowing up to find free space to nail a lap.

FTD point(s) would just create that extra points allocation that could make all the difference if the number of rounds that count are reduced. Otherwise we could end up with several drivers on the same number of points at the end of the summer.

Yep can totally agree with that, but I think the least we cut it down to is 28 scores counting so another 8 results or 4 weeks so 10 weeks in total can be lost but yea I like the sound of FTD extra point :-)

If there was even point count back would always decide of course

That sounds about right to me. What does everyone else think?

Just took a quick look at the results for last summers Mardave/Mini Championship and there are about 12 or so drivers that attended (or nearly attended) enough weeks to record 28 scores/14 weeks.

It makes absolutely no difference to me wether I am getting points or not as I am not going to get anywhere in the championships anyway.

As long as I can race everyweek, I`m happy! :)

That was quite a pointless post really, reading it back! :lol:

Starting position in qualifying is determined by your average score from qualifying from the previous year/championship. You are scored up to 30 points for 1st, 29 for 2nd and so on. It is an AVERAGE of all your qualifying results (not your finals). So for example, if you turned up once in 2012 and TQ'd you would start all of this season on pole.

However, Steve is the adjudicator so this is flexible. therefore, if no one has any previous scores, or their qualifying score was not representative of thier performance, Steve will manually adjust this - you just need to a) ask him and b) proove it. If its a close call, he will give it in favour of the person who has the more results.

So if your asking to move up you'll need to quite convincingly beat the people starting directly ahead of you. you cant expect Steve to just move you up on your say-so.

but this system works and is fair. Ive not known anyone get upset from this - so if anyone is I suggest they speak to Steve as its so easily resolved. If someone is in the wrong heat he will move them forward - just takes a little common sense which our Steve has in abundance. (he went to Marling)

I dont think this needs to change as it aint broke. and the way it is at the mo is very easy for people like Steve to create the heats (which he does for a mere £100 a night - joke!)

Any updates on this, I know the questionnaire went out at club a few weeks ago.

Another thought on this would be to run to championships through the Summer and to be run on alternative weeks. Touring car and Supastox championships A one week, then T/C and S/S championships B on alternate weeks.

This would give competitive racing every week and for those that can only do certain nights, it will give them the chance to race alternative weeks but still compete for a championship. Downfalls would be that it means two championships that run concurrent, which may confuse some people :lol: And that it could make championship A or B more competitive as drivers concentrate on each class on alternative weeks.

Personally though I'm not really looking at championships and just want competitive fun racing every week:)

The Results Are in....
 

Hi all

Well the votes are in and out of the 25 Votes we have a majority who want the new system

Voting was 14 (56%) for yes, 8 (32%) for no and 3(12%) for try something different.

So I am pleased to say the new system will be adopted for the start of the next season.

Thanks for Voting.

what a stupid system, now I can spend half my time at GERCC "practising", total madness :thumbdown:

Right - let's see if this works!!
I have read through this thread and feel I need to clarify some things and put my view forward, which hopefully is unbiased, as I don't race.

Qualifying score
Some of you have got the right idea of how this is calculated but here it is simplified.
Each week there is a total of 60 points up for grabs (30 for qualifying & 30 for final). 30 points for 1st, 29 for 2nd etc. These are added up each week and the total is divided by the number of weeks ie your average score or qualifying score. The number 30 was picked purely because it was decided that there would never be more than 30 drivers in any one week who would be racing the same class of car. This method of calculating the qualifying score has proved very accurate. This can be shown during any evenings racing by how little the heats change from qualifying to finals. It also is not affected by how often you race except if you only race very very occasionally and only then if your results for that night are not your normal standard.

Championship
The points for the championship are made up from qualifying and finals. I decided that it was unfair to only get points from one race ie the final. There were racers who did really well in qualifying and then messed up in the final and therefore had nothing to show for the evening. Each championship season is approximately 26 weeks. We appreciate that people have holidays etc and (as some of you have realised) we didn't want the championship to be decided by whoever came the most hence we allow for a number of absent weeks - normally about 5. Therefore we say the maximum amount of weeks which can be attributed to your final count is 21. The only advantage now of racing every week is if you have a bad weeks racing because we only use the best 21 weeks out of 26.

Summer championship rules
The new rules will not affect anyone's qualifying position. It just means the scores will be lower because there will be less scoring weeks.
Personally, I can't see any advantage in the new system which reducing the number of qualifying weeks wouldn't solve - say 'the best 15 out of 26'. This way you are not held to certain weeks as qualifying weeks. Say for example you do shift work - it could be feasible that you will be working every qualifying week and therefore get no championship points at all. Doing it my way you can decide for yourself which weeks qualify.

This is just my view - I will do whatever you all decide.

Had a problem finishing the missive above so thought I would send it before I lost it and continue here.
Mark is correct re how I can manually input qualifying positions.
When someone first starts racing I have to 'guess' a score based on their own view. If this score is proven to be wrong I can adjust it so that drivers are racing against other drivers of a similar ability - obviously if all else fails, £100 will always improve your qualifying score. I think I'm joking but don't tempt me!!

Have to see how this works out but my first reaction is that I believe it will reduce the number of drivers from the fast end of the field showing up to race on non championship nights thus making the whole thing less fun.
Really enjoying GT12 even if I am still struggling a little with getting my head around setting up a car on sauced foam tires but if I'm right it will be in the classifieds soon & I'll be back to 100 mile round trip for club racing again :-(

See you tonight if my tires show up in time

My thoughts exactly, it wasnt broke was it?

We should have just reduced the number of qualifying championship weeks to 12-15 thus keeping the flexibility for attendance and maintaining competitive racing week to week.

The new system will reduce club revenue too. Personally I wont bother coming to non championship weeks whereas currently I come along whenever I can (approx 40 weeks a year) because I know there will always be competitive fun racing.

Sorry chaps, I just dont get it

As I have stated at the start of this thread. It aint broke so why change it. As Steve and Grayslick have eluded to, reducing the number of weeks that are counted towards the championship would have the same net result.

This wholesale change of the current system only satisfies those that plan on racing two cars in different championships.

Like Martin, I may also consider only racing alternate weeks, reducing active numbers, making the racing less fun.

The club has people travelling from far afield to race competitively at Glos, will these people bother week in week out? I very much doubt it.

So when the club numbers drop again as they do year in year out during the summer months, we will see how profitable the clubs becomes then.

A backward step satisfying the few "who bothered to vote".

I am quite new to this and have stayed out of the thread but having seen the "result" I had to comment.

Picture the scene - its a lovely evening, the sun is up and the Wife is pestering you to drag the BBQ out of the shed. Having said that its Friday night and that means race night at Glos .... on hang on, it's only practice for my class tonight so why bother. Lets stay at home and earn some browny points for putting the family before the club.

It does seem short sighted in my opinion to make it so that the incentive to turn up each week is deminished. A far more sensible approach would have been to reduce the amount of point scoring weeks so that if people did have a poor week when setting up the car it would not impact their standing. Having an average is also a good idea as long a minimum number of rounds have been reached.

The club will surely lose revenue if the reason to turn up each week for those of us who do not have the money to run more than one class. If people are so keen to run set ups on the live track is not possible to arrange a seperate practice night during the week? I am sure this might be possible if the venue is not already booked up and people are willing to stump up to cover the cost.

With the Gloucester Quays event on the horizon we have the potential for even more people joining so what is next, a once a month competitive week per class with a deli style ticket system!

Not everyone goes on Oople and whilst I understand that voting slips were available at the club it was a bit covert and as such not everyone will have been aware. The people who are engaged will have voted but as many of them are normally the ones who are proposing the idea with a voting pool so low it may have distorted the vote.

Shame to have gone down this route especially as so many people have stating that it was not broken in the first place.

Ok, so just looking my diary for the coming months. I know I'm not going to be able to make at least 3 of the scheduled GT12 rounds. So that means I already know I cannot score the maximum qualifying rounds :thumbdown:

I am baffled by the moaning here… :(

A complaint had been made about the way the championship was run…

A solution was created by the committee to be passed to the club

YOU the drivers were asked to vote..

YOU the drivers voted it in.

I think it is probably a good idea to let this run for the summer season and see how it goes and we can re-evaluate the system if it looks like its failing..
Nothing in the RC world is for ever

I didnt see any voting slips, when were these made available? seems at least 2 others are in the same boat, so 8 peope said no + 3 others that didnt know about the voting slips + 3 others that didnt like the idea anyway = 14 yes 14 no

crikey - i voted for the change, but seeing the objections people have means they feel a lot more strongly about this than I do. Maybe this is the same for others as well.

I voted for it as the championships or championship points arent my priority. I just want to win whatever :). And I liked the idea of groups of us all concentrating on the same class at the same time.
But basically id still turn up the same amount so whichever decision wouldnt affect me hugely.

But guess if other people dont feel the same it aint good. I dont think we want to be putting people off coming - thats for certain.

Dont really know how we could go forward now???

guys- would also say be careful how you/we comment about new rules - Shane has tried to do things fairly so try not to blame but explain.

If people didnt know about voting then its defo a valid point.

Cheers

It’s all well and good waiting till now
The voting slips were at race control for any1 one to vote for more than 1 week and I think Shane took them around so if people didn’t vote whose fault is that?

The main advantage of the new system was that there would never be mixed cars in races where there were champ point up for grabs…. But seeing as the new club no longer allows mixed classes in heats then that advantage as now gone.
Another one is yes people doing 2 classes it makes life easier……but id still do 2 class’s neways because I ENJOY JUST RACING.
Less counting weeks so it’s not just an attendance race…. That can also be fixed due to having less counting week …. Granted.
People could spend less racing ……not have to run good tyres every week for instance people could use a harder compound on practice nights which will last longer and save money???

But at the end the day I go racing because I enjoy racing my toy cars, if there a champ or not I don’t care, I enjoy racing round with friends having a social night and hopefully doing well.
If people ONLY come to collect points for the champs and this system is going to kill of the club (as that is what you are trying to say and use that as leverage) then how come so many people turned up in the snow for just a free for all???
Im quite sure the vast majority come to the club because they love racing RC cars and get a buzz out of it and that (inless people only are points collecting) isn’t going to be effected by these rules. Same people will be there same racing will take place nothing on the surface of the night will change only the background champ tables. So I really can’t see how that is suddenly going to kill the club like you are saying.

My response was absolutely not having a dig at anyone on the committee and especially not at Shane - I never shoot the messenger. Running any kind of club is hard work and will no matter what your intensions and with the best will in the world you will never please all of the people all of the time.

As said in a previous post this is running over the summer season and see how it goes.

Sound - let's all stay cool and happy. My post was really aimed more at possible future comments rather than previous- I was being presumptuous. I don't think anyone has been offensive but can see people gettin more and more emotive.