Clarifications to the GT12 Rules
 

If anyone had told me when these were written earlier this year that we would have clubs up and down the country adopting them and racing the cars, and over 40 places taken up at Nationals, I wouldn’t have believed them. Thank you to everyone who has taken this class up and raced it.

Time and your feedback have shown that there are those who are trying to understand the rules, and those who are testing them! So, time for some clarifications from the experience we have so far.

Carbon-fibre composite chassis – the intent was to prevent expensive, ‘must-have’ hop ups. To be clear, whatever the material supplied by the manufacturer for that car in their less-than £100 kit is the material you can use. You cannot upgrade the chassis material at all. Only chassis’ that come with the kit can be used.

Bodyshells – everyone has cut their shells to the cut lines on the moulding and seem happy with that. We’ll incorporate that as a rule to prevent any slamming of the shells which may then require low-profile electronics. The rear bumper line on the GT1 (Exige) is obvious, but the Ascari isn’t. Rules for that will be proposed after seeing what Kamtec and Mardave can help with.

We’ll be putting forward a proposal that the shells must be painted in the style of a current GT car, and not in some free-form war-paint, airbrushed style. This will preserve the look of the class and it’s attractiveness to new drivers. That will be voted at the EGM next April; no change for this season.

Feedback says that the numbers we use for the classes aren’t descriptive and are difficult to remember. We will propose to re-name GT12.1 as GT12 SuperCup, and GT12.2 as GT12 Production to make it easier to identify which is which.

GT12 Production hasn’t taken up well. I wonder if the lack of a differential is an issue here. If we allowed a differential in this class, do we think it would improve the take-up? Your comments by post here, e-mail or PM to me, would be welcomed.

The 21.5 class has become redundant. It was there because there were too few 1S-ready speed controllers at a fair price. With the new Mardave and Schumacher controllers now available for only £15 more than a good booster on its own, there is no reason to use 2S. Obviously clubs can do what they want, but for Nationals it is a redundant rule and will be removed.

Peter Winton
GT12 Co-ordinator, BRCA 12th Section Committee

If you have any proposals you would like to see proposed at the EGM, proposal forms will be circulated around March 2013, with our EGM being held in April 2013. Every BRCA member is welcome. Any discussions on here might help see what support you have.

I agree with most of these points, I think the success of this class is superb, I must confess to not racing it myself but it is/was the support class at some local clubs, I think it my now be the dominant class.

The only rule proposal I don't like relates to the bodyshell colours. Most racers develop their own colours and scheme. I'd like to see these and their individualisum continue.

But thats the only thing, long live the class!

I do race GT12 myself. Fantastic class and only going to get more popular. Agree with everything apart from the bodyshell colours, as said I have my own colours that I run on all my cars

I've been racing my Schumacher since the week they came out and have thoroughly enjoyed it, as I last raced 12th and mardave ministock 22years+ ago. Really enjoyed the class at my local club YMRC, which moved from a purely mardave club to the gt12 early on. Clarification of some rules is needed, as I see confusion outside of my club, on forums and gt12 facebook group. Too many rules and regs will surely kill the class as quick as it arrived however.

Personally I think the class works very well with 1S/13.5t/blinky, and the notion of running 2S/21.5 should be dropped as it only confuses newcomers, meaning they could spend on that setup, then discover they have to spend again.

bodyshell painting rules are a ridiculous idea. If I had a real GT race car, I could paint it how I wished!

I don't see the need for separate gt12.1 or .2 classes. It should just be gt12 as the gt12.1 rules. Every car I see has some form of non kit mod, be it different battery holders, Ali nuts or a diff. Every mardave owner I know has none kit bits, as do lots of Schumacher owners. Sure limit titanium turnbuckles and carbon chassis hopups, etc, but if you are going to have box stock and hopupped cars in different classes, but running on the track together, what's the point? Just run with one class. box stock car can be setup and driven to win over a modded car with a diff, etc with good setup and driving. People will always like to add little upgrades to any car in any price range. Sure no non-kit titanium or carbon is fair though, with the £99 kit price limit. You don't require a diff to win, and the split of mardave/ Schumacher chassis at meetings prove both work at all levels, Z to A final.

As said above,I dont agree with the body shell design,yes an authentic design does look nice,but as said above,alot of people(my self included)over the years have got there own colours and design.

I've been looking at this class for a few weeks now as an alternative to off-road and I also don't like the proposed rule regarding the painting of the shells. I use my own design and colours on all my cars, I couldn't even tell you what a real GT car paint job looks like as I don't follow GT racing but I do like the look of this class for close cheap racing. What would happen if you had 4-5 drivers in the same race with the same paint scheme - new spectators wouldn't know which car was which after a few laps.....

If I remember correctly they tried to bring this rule in when the F1 cars became popular again and I dropped out of that as it made me lose interest.

There are only around 10 designs and I dont think theres a decent looking one between them!

I went 2S to start with and the bought another set of electrics to switch to 1S. Really should try and avoid this but dont forget all the others that have already set themselves up at 2S

Don't forget these rules are for nationals only. Clubs can still run what they like. 2s is being removed from these rules as it has just confused what is actually allowed to be used at nationals. 2s was only originally added to the rules in the first place for clubs.

I must have seen well over 100 GT12s now and I have NEVER seen a 2s car. It must be a regional thing. It is definitely much rarer than 1s.

Paint scheme - remember it is a proposal, not a rule. Seems to be almost universally unpopular. I have suggested an alternative on the other forum.

Trev

Bodyshells, agree with the majority so far. I've got two being done at the moment and I actually said to Carl to do them in my colours and style, but to tweak the design to better fit a GT shell. I'm awaiting the outcome.

Diffs, already replied on this one on Racechat, NO! In GT12 Production. That really is all you need to go up that next level, it makes a Huge difference. They're £32, which is a 3rd of a whole kit! And as for running stock Neal, I do. I ran box stock all National weekend and admittedly was not at the front (lack of diff), but ran pretty well tbh.

Keep GT12 Production as Box Stock. Nothing allowed extra, just different springs, o-rings and foams, that's all.

And no to everyone thinking, well you run your LiPo system. At the National I took it off and ran Velcro, and yes, it was horrible, lol.

Thanks for all the considered feedback it is appreciated.

General consensus is that the body painting is not a good idea, but there is some support for having lights, grilles, windows as per the real cars, and not stylised.

Most want to keep GT12.2 (Production) as it is, so there's a no-brainer!

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to the debate. The EGM is next April so plenty of time for more views and ideas.

Fully agree with everyone on the bodyshell proposal. I think we should all be able to go with our own schemes. But I do agree that lights should be depicted in all cases. Not so sure about grills, but that's because my painting skills are rudimentary at best and I despise stick on decals with a passion!

As to renaming the classes I agree with that, but think the rules need to be tougher on the 'production' class ie, control motor, speedo and battery as well as a control tyre.

A lot of people will disagree with this but it would make for a very cheap pure stock class, and might even encourage more take up at the national level.

assuming you have done a national , you would know that control tyre is a no go as both chassis use different shores to stop grip roll or even get grip, you could end up with one tyre and one of each car that suits the grip/tyre on the day
as for control speedo motor etc, that adds cost as the only way to police that is have a set motor/speedo/lipo, some racers use old speedos or given speedos to keep cost down and you will force them to buy a "spec" set
the idea is to have both classis run side by side

we included 2s at our club to make it easier for members to switch to gt12, although we only have 3 2s drivers all the rest are 1s.

as for control electrics it would be expensive and unfair to all who have paid out already.

control foams wouldnt work as the 2 chassis's work differently

Control tyres is a no-no in foam classes as Mark says. Only if the cars are way over-tyred, like GT10s, does it have any merit. Bearing in mind the price and the lack of wear, tyres are not an expense in the same way as any other electric class.

The control electrics is more interesting. Whilst it seems like a good idea, there are so many second-hand items on the market these days that it is often cheaper to go that route than to buy even the great deals from Mardave and Schumacher. Also, as Dave Dodd points out, if we change the rules now, those wanting to enter next year will have to fork out again for all their electrics.

The reality is that control classes have never worked. Back in the early 1980s 8th Track tried a thing called Club 20. I think every electric and gas Section has tried a control of some area of their rules or another, all have failed completely. In electrics, we are left with control tyres in TC and Off-Road and that's it. Since GT12 control tyres will give everyone a headache at one time or another due to track, car and driving style differences, it's not something that should be contemplated.

Thanks again for everyone's interest in GT12, it is appreciated.

Double post. :blush:

Think the only thing i want gone is reverse,how many times have you passed a car that has reverse for it to shoot out and hit you ??

Yep, totally agree. Especially at Nationals. If you're at a level where you attend and race at a National, then you shouldn't need reverse!
It also makes sure everyone knows if you crash, to go and get you. Marshalls hesitate now, just in case you have reverse and they're wasting their time going to get you. Also reversing out into other competitors path and causing crashes and ruining their race.. And flying out under Marshalls feet...

As you can see, I detest Reverse, it should be Banned at Nationals, and Regionals for that matter... Club racing, maybe allowed, but only in Heat 1.

While the bodyshell painting rule is not a good idea, worse still is the limitation on the shells themselves. I don't understand why we can't use any shell available for the chassis. They are all made by the same company anyway, and there are so many to choose from! That's probably the thing I like the most about the class. Why shouldn't I be allowed to come and test my mk1 Escort against the Ascaris? Works pretty well at my club.

For the same reason you are not allowed to use Sports shells at a TC race, saloon shells in 8th Track F1, Indy cars in the F1 class - this class is for GT cars currently running in British and FIA GT classes.

The class is not for the chassis with any shell, it is for GT cars running chassis conforming to those rules. There are classes for Mk1 Escorts and all the other shells Kamtec offer, so if you want to run a shell there is probably a class for it. More shells will be available in the months to come for GT12, so hopefully there will be one that takes your fancy. HTH :)

Well I am amazed to read you guys all talking about dropping the 21.5 2s as this is almost the only setup which is run at our club also the Chippenham Winter Indoor Championship as around 20 drivers running the Superstox and I am sure nearly all of them have converted to the 2s system because of issues running 13.5.
Going forward the rules need to be sorted, worrying about body shells is small fry compared the mess that will be caused by changing the entire electrics of the car.. can we please get the core sorted.

im strongly for retaining 1s only at nationals, clubs can do what they want, but why not follow the national route, 2s has never been a national class.the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class.
id be interested to see how many of your racers run 0deg motor timing and how you police it though. my local club i have not heard of any 1s issue unles your missguided as to what to run/do

PLEASE, TC is a very poor example for this. Not when the rules state that cars should be a reasonable replica of a road going vehicle yet homologated bodies incude many that are openly not even trying to be a model of a real car. This is why so many people regard touring as boring, same thing happened to Pro-10, almost killed 1/12th... It shouldn't happen to GT12 too. While the concept may be ok on paper, running heat after heat of Ascaris gets old. Reminds me of the Dodge Stratus.. and now the Mazda 6. I might slap a huge wing on the back and a carbon splitter and run mine as a Ford Escort GT.

I would also back up Shane on his point. It really is difficult to see where 1 cell wins out. It costs more, with a booster the set up is more complex, the cell is pushed harder, there is a smaller selection of compatible electronics and there are a lot more documented reliability issues running powerful servos, PTs etc. While I know a couple of voices are not going to change the views of the majority, I really struggle to understand why 1 cell is so favoured.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark christopher (Post 718681) im strongly for retaining 1s only at nationals, clubs can do what they want, but why not follow the national route, 2s has never been a national class.the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class.

This is not good… Clubs need to stay close to whatever the BRCA rule book decides. We had a massive problem because the GT12 rules were not sorted so many of our guys went in all different directions.. Then when the winter series started most of the drivers had to go out and buy what we thought was going to be the BRCA regulation.. Which in our ears was
13.5 1s Timed ---- OR ---- 21.5 2s Blinky
The 21.5 must have no motor timing and a number of motors were supposedly put forward which is what we are using… This is easily policed.. Blinky is what it says… your speedo Blinks.. to be honest it is obvious if you have a cheater
Where is it documented what the “National Class” is you say “the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class” I thought that the 2s was part of the BRCA rules so therefore is a National class.
I am sure the failure to sort this could cause serious issues with the class and could be quite damaging to its future..

odd how off road uses the same description of body shell, yet thats not suffering, the class is gt, and shells need to be approved, ginetta and aston shells are on the way. but escort would not be approved

hmmm this is my point

im not sure when winter serries start in your area but the GT rules were published around the 6/12 http://rcracechat.com/vb/showthread....-clarification

this is taken from the 12gt entry
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=cont...onbridge/17806


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level.


2s 21.5 has never been a national class, as i said some people have been confused or missinformed, hence my reason to get rid of 21.5 rules, clubs can do thier own thing. its sshould have been 1s only from the start, the cheap combos work well and robin schumacher puts his car in national a finals, you just need to make sure you fit a suitable servo, £130 sees you with 1s lipo/speedo/motor and suitable servo. you just need the correct info.

cost more?

£130 for core 1s speedo/13.5 motor and 1s lipo and a 12th savox servo!
no booster needed, not complex, as its wired the same as a 2s system
all above work on 1s
its cheap and simple...

Not when your club is going to make you buy new gear, because 2s is being removed from the rules! Im not interested at running at nationals, but dont want to buy new gear just to run at the club.
Please keep a small note in the rules to allow the use of 2s at club level. If this.was not in the rules it would have not been a very difficult decision for me to justify entering this class.

the brca rules are there only for national events and a guide for clubs, clubs can if they wish do anything they like so long as there members are happy.

As this was the first year gt12 had its own rules, i think 2s was included just to help clubs get an idea of what to do.

So your club if running 2s should carry on, if there is a healthy number of racers doing the same.

we decided at an early stage that we would follow the rules as closely as possible but allowing 1s, 2s & g2 to run side by side, which means visitors can come along from other clubs knowing they will fit in.

totally agree, it should be banned from nationals. :thumbsup:

clubs night fair enough, though annoying for marshals. :lol:

From what i have been told one of my clubs is going to run exactly to BRCA rules. So if i still want to race im going to have to fork out £130 - £170 to carry on racing.

£90 for the ESC, motor, and core single cell.

£40 - 80 for additional cells.

Is this still just a proposal? or is the 21.5 removed from the rules now?

For me the timing thing is not a problem, it is as quick to show you are running blinky on the esc as it is to show the end bell is set @ 0.

You could race touring cars? Much less hassle and just as cheap.

Sorry guys I don’t know what the hell is going on.. This is the best way to kill a class before its properly established!!!!

This is the current rules on the BRCA website:…
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572
and it states...........
3 Definition of Brushless Motor
3.1 13.5 brushless - Any motor listed in any of the Electric Board Homologation List for Brushless Spec Motors (13.5) as updated from time to time.
3.2 21.5 brushless - Any motors listed in Appendix 3 to these Rules

Appendix Three – 21.5 motors allowed – (Construction) Rule 3.2
21.5t motors which have locked or fixed mechanical timing (ideally from the EB list) are suggested. For example:
HobbyWing / Xerun “Stock” 2.15t (part number 90040150/1)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V2 21.5t (Part Number SPF21V2)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V3 21.5t (Part Number SP00008)
Novak SS Pro 21.5t (Part Number 3421)
Losi Xcelron 21.5t (Part Number LOSB9409)
The Corally Pro Red motor is specifically excluded. If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees.
(Intent – that the 21.5 motors are not used with mechanical timing advanced as this will give a performance advantage over the 13.5/1S combinations. It is intended that use of 2S cells simplifies installation, not gives a performance advantage.)
So to be messing around now is just taking the “p” people are buying kits for Christmas presents and they could end up with rubbish
:mad::mad::mad:

The 2s/21.5 rule should never have been put in the book. It was well intentioned, no doubt about that, but all it has done is cause confusion - and certainly not an equivalency. Removing them going forward is the right decision.

If you read the rulebook in full, you will see that 21.5 is a "suggested" rule for club racing and NOT a legal powerplant at the BRCA nationals. Never has been.

Clubs, as ever, are free to choose their classes.

I do believe there is a place for a 2s powerplant in the class, and certainly at club level - most people I know that have run both prefer the 2s option because there is less hassle with the electrics. 2s/21.5 does seem faster than the "equivalent" 1s/13.5 which is a potential issue, although at club level I suspect that the greater accessibility to racers of 2s/21.5 is more important than giving racers the chance to run at a National without changing parts on their car.

So... buy what is required for the racing you want to do... for BRCA Nationals, it's 13.5/1s, for club, it could be something completely different.

Indeed, somewhat more. I run the Hobbywing sensorless setup, £60 for motor and ESC and an £11 2S LiPo. Any servo will work.
The main thing is that it will be so much less stressed on 2S. Although the 1S and 2S cars are similarly paced, 1S systems are pushing about twice the current which heats up motors and ESCs and kills cells quicker. I wouldn't be comfortable running one pack for a whole meeting on 1S which is my current practice. I am not arguing that it doesn't work, but it is wrong to exclude 2S as a confusion. Newcomers generally don't race at National meetings, nobody is getting confused about anything. The fact is, 1S should never have been started and from a purely technical point of view, it is 1S that should be banned and 2S only allowed if there's some sort of confusion to be avoided.

Oh dear, SOMETHING needs to happen as since the beggining of GT12 I've wanted to race this class, especially at my local club. However in order for me, and many many many many others I suspect, to take the plunge there needs to be a very clearly stated set of totally unambegious rules.

This is crazy! Please for your own sake, and that of the clubs, sort this mess out! I currently would rather do a 100 mile round trip to race a different class than go to a club less than 4 miles from my house to run GT12 as I KNOW whatever I buy will be the wrong damn thing in a few months time.

The class looks great fun, should be super close racing ... please don't kill it!!

LOL.. LongRat that’s fighting talk :-)

But to be honest I thought the 12th pan car was the 1s system.. This is a new class so time for a change.. Also…. is it not aimed for the new young drivers? It needs to be cheep and easy

If people want to stick with old system why don’t they go back to the 12th?

And really what is wrong with mixing the 13.5 and the 21.5.

Bottom line is what the BRCA say must go… so the real question is when is the 2013 rules going to be distributed??

Sorry but that's more miss information, just because an endbell says 0 degree does not mean its timed at 0 degree, hence the specific motor list.

The plan is to remove for next season after the egm. As has been said clubs can still do what they like. It's not a national rules and should not be shown with the .national rules.

Maybe on your planet
New gt car with diff 130 for a top level kit
Top level tc 300 yup I see your point

Understand what you are saying regarding the endbell, but i can say if it is blinking it is not actually stock.......

The motor list also has the line "If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees"