Anybody tried 35deg overall caster on the 22?
 

Hi lads,

Just wondering whether anybody has tried 35deg overall caster on their 22s?
I'm currently running the car in 25deg kickup with the 5deg caster block but the car still feels a little too aggressive off power on a very high traction astro track. Would using the 10deg block with the 25deg kick shims calm down the front end on corner entry and make it less aggressive?
The car is quick around the track but doesn't feel consistent enough for me due to the aggressive nature of the front end. Similarly I'd be interested in whether there are any problems to running the 25/10 setup on the 22?

All help would be great


Chris

Hi

I haven't tried this but from my understanding this increased caster would take away initial turn in but increase your mid to exit steering, which might make it feel more 'snatchy' to drive on exit.

If you are looking to calm the car down, have you tried the 4mm trailing axles? For me this smooths the car out and makes it more consistent to drive.

HTH

I was just curious of the effect of the caster before I get the 4mm trailing axles. As I said I have been using the 25/5 deg setup as supposed to the stock 20/10 setup and the car does feel better and more planted on power as it increases rear weight transfer? Is this right?
I have been thinking about the caster separately to the overall caster combined with the kick and was wondering whether using the 25/5 setup over the 20/10 setup actually makes the car more aggressive as the caster itself (not combined with the kick) is smaller or does this not matter as its the overall value that will effect handling?
I certainly feel the 25deg kick angle gives a sense of more rear grip but was wondering if the increased weight transfer this gives you was causing the car to feel aggressive off power on the high grip astro.


Chris

I've run 25/10 on my 22 and I still use it in slick conditions as a tuning aid.

From what I understand, you're right to be trying to separate the kick from the caster as 20/10 or 25/5 or 30/0 will all behave subtly different.

Increasing the kick angle will exaggerate wheelbase change during compression. Again, from what I understand, increasing kick will also enable greater weight transfer - but it will resist any initial transfer longer.

So in theory, 20 deg kick will produce the least amount of weight transfer but it will initiate the transfer earlier.

It's always worth re-visiting geometry choices and objectively testing them back to back to decide if the original decision is still the best one. Our setups always evolve. As Delves has said, he likes the 4mm trailing and that is certainly an effective mechanism to reduce the front end aggression. Personally, i can't get on with the 4mm myself so I continue with the 2mm.

But its also true to say that since everything affects everything else, simply changing one aspect may not always yield the best result and can give a false impression. You may need to alter other aspects of the set up to yield an overall improvement and failure to do this will otherwise lead you to thinking that the single change was not worthwhile.

HTH

So just to clarify, using 20deg kickup in theory would reduce weight transfer rearward compared with the 25deg? And would feel a little more aggressive? I tend to research a certain tuning aspect one at a time so am trying to get my head around weight transfer at the moment.
As for the 4mm trailing spindles, I do intend to get these ASAP but what are the benefits and disadvantages over 2mm, in which conditions should they help or are they something that give a different 'feel' that some drivers would prefer but you would always use them with your setup regardless of track type and grip levels?


Chris

That's pretty much as I understand it Chris yes.

Here's a couple of useful articles that the Team Losi Racing guys posted on their blog a while back that might help you.

4mm Trailing Spindle explanation - click here

Kick Angle explanation - click here

HTH

Its quite an interestin topic for the 22

Ive dun all the mods the team do, from day one every one helped!

Remove inside 2mm
Then did 25/5
Long link mod
Long link with 30 block with 0 caster
Now i run 25/5 with 4mm normal link with 3 caster as it was better than 0

The car now i love! (Delves set up)

The only thing where i go wrong is i change tyres to conditions but i neva know what small thing to change as conditions change

i.e. it rains, u want tad more steering or rear end from this base set up. I run delves now and as in other thread its mint !! Jus knowin more wud help me

I think the great thing about the Delves set up is that it is inherently well balanced and enables the driver to get on the throttle slightly earlier in the turn than my own set up enables.

Running in the wet shouldn't be too much of a problem - use the Delves set up as your basis and look to increase the front Caster by using a 10 deg block. You will have to moderate the throttle a bit more but the car will still retain its balance and composure.

I'd also consider shortening your links by moving the inboard locations out to the hole number 2 on both front and rear. This change combined with the caster block change is likely to be enough to start with.

Depending on surface, obviously a tyre change will be in order - probably to a Schumacher silver or a BB Green depending on Astro type.
I would look to run a silver minispike front if using silvers on the rear or maybe a BB slim green front or even a Schumacher minispike green if using BB rears.

To be honest though, the tyre choice has to be driven by what works on whatever track you find yourself on as the tyre will dominate all other characteristics.

Solid advise as always from Andy :thumbsup: Can't really add to that :)

Thanks for the help lads, looking forward to getting some track time to try it out. My next meeting however is on a 50/50 carpet and slippery gym floor track at the weekend. I originally tried the 25/5 setup on this surface and I felt it hooked up quite well so have persevered with the 25/5 setup on all surfaces since.

I know it's a little off topic but I was advised to use low roll centre with 0 anti squat on the polished floor last time so
I changed from my HRC 4.5deg block and 3deg anti squat to the LRC option. Should the LRC block be more suited to slippery floor? Because I'm sure it didn't feel any different to the HRC block with 3deg more anti squat.

Delves, any chance I could get hold of your astro
Setup to compare to mine?


Chris

Pop a couple of threads back think its steering one it has his on it

The 22 seems very responsive to small changes, wen i went 0 caster to 3 last sunday it was a titally different car. So do small things at a time

I jus follow the prosand seens to work

So keep shim to the flat 25 one and go from 3 to 10 caster, shorten links sounds perfect changes nice and easy

Would all the shims stay same rear 2 & 2 front 2 & 2

Last thing do bleeder caps affect much ova bladders? Tempted to change but id want metal and cost ova use i always weigh up

Thanks all this info helps loads

Now pester thrm for a 4wd lol

Cheers guys,
Easy bits first:

@RDG40 - yup, all shims stay the same - just shorten the links. Also, bleeder caps all the way. Haven't used bladders since about mid 2011. Definitely easier to build and bleed shocks and the alloy bleeder caps are deffo worth the investment

@Chris - I can understand the drop in anti-squat for polished floor as it will promote rearward weight transfer and I did do this to mine at Telstar last winter. I also moved the shock out on the tower to the outer hole to improve forward drive. It was good but scary when it did let go :woot: Definitely one where you have to be quite smooth...but it was good on the slippy (although a handful on the grippy - probably due to the shock location more so than the anti squat though)

As for LRC vs HRC, I can only say that I have stuck with HRC on my set ups. From the testing we did in the beginning, the LRC feels as if it grips harder to begin with but then it lets go more aggressively. It might be faster but I wasn't as consistent with it so I've always stuck with the HRC. Others prefer the locked in initial feeling of the LRC blocks (the HRC will feel looser on corner entry but will be more progressive through the entire turn). Horses for courses really. A bit like the 4mm Trailing axles - Delves swears by them and I swear at them - lol. But as you know and as RDG40 has said, the car is super reactive to small changes so it should be possible to get somewhere near for your individual driving style.

HTH

Oh - forgot to add.

@ RDG40 - when you change the caster block from 3 or 5 to 10 deg, don't forget to make sure you add some bumpsteer washers under the outer steering ball stud - 2mm should do it. The change in caster will affect the height of these and you want to be aiming (IMO) for zero bump steer.

HTH

Hi Chris,

The set up I ran at Off Road Wars should be good for a slippy/High Traction indoor circuit :) You can find it in this thread;

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114285

It's my first post in this thread and the second of the set up sheets I believe.

Astro set up is pretty much the same as my indoor set up, the only thing I play with is the piston hole size believe it or not! I will dig a set up sheet out from the Nats tomorrow as it's on my work machine at the mo! I have a set up form all the national tracks this year, what track would you say is closest to your local astro track (gives me an idea as to which set up to post for you to compare).

Have to say that my set up has a great deal to do with Andy (Aka, Gnarly Old Dog), we have been working throuout the year on our cars and we have arrived at a set up that I personally feel has an excellent balance. Obviously it's not going to be to everyone's liking but I was pleased to see that RDG40 found it to be good for him and hope others will find that too :)

which setup is the "Magic" setup Delves...we ru on ozite carpet in the states....with wooden jumps...the grip gets pretty high by the end of the night...


i had my car good then something went south...a starting point would be great..

matt

Hi Matt,
The attached is Chris's (Delves) latest set up that he ran at the last round of the Maritime Off Road Wars - an indoor circuit with medium grip on carpet plus slippery wooden sections.

Not quite sure how grippy that will compare to your ozite carpet. In higher bite situations, we'd probably look to up the spring rates a touch - going to a blue on the front and a pink at the rear to keep things plantedor maybe up the damping a touch.

On really high bite, if you can hang on to it, the 2mm standard axles can be used to sharpen up the steering response but I'd say have a try with the attached and go from there.

It might not work for you but hit us back with what's going on and we'll throw in some suggestions if you like? Like we'd always say, the set ups evolve for each driver - if the attached helps as a starting point then that's great but don't be afraid to try out your own things, one at a time, and see/feel what they do. The 22 is very rewarding in this respect - it does tell you what's going on if you want to listen:)

HTH

the cut motor guard is it as I believe and jus cut in half? this allows cells to move back just about 5 or so mm?

Could guard just be removed?

Yeah, the guard is cut to allow the cells to be moved back as far as possible as well allowing for more flex. I would either cut the guard or put spacer in at the top (where the guard fits onto the gearbox) so you dont twist/bend the motor plate.

Ahh got ya now forgot it spaces the mount.

Luckily have a cut one already

Ta

Have u got any pic of this mod ?

Thanks ..

Thanks for the advice Chris and gnarly.

I've taken a look at your setup from Maritime Chris and it's not all that far away from what I came up with for my previous round on the carpet/slippery floor track. I do however have a few questions if you don't mind?
You say on the setup that you use 55 pistons all around (I used 54 in the rear last time) with a rounded edge? Does this mean you screw the piston to the shock shaft upside down and what advantage does this give over the standard 55 piston?
Secondly, you are running the +.75 rear hexes, are these BRCA legal and how do they help the setup? A more planted rear end under power?
And finally, I find it curious you are using the 3deg caster blocks, I imagine this would make the car very aggressive and pointy or does the addition of the 4mm trailing axles tame the front end so much that a 3deg block is manageable?

I would consider myself a pretty quick driver but I lack consistency at times which damages my qualifying (especially during round by round qualifying) so I need a safe setup I would have thought.
I intend to run your setup (using either a 3.5deg or 4.5 deg HRC block as that's what I have) at the weekend and make tweaks from there that I will post on here.

Chris, outdoors I race mainly at Bury Metro which is a fairly flat astro track with some harsh bumps and off camber sections.

Thanks again for the help

Chris

Here you are bud, basically you just cut it so you only have top section, i mount my transponder there so i left a bit of meat to put velcro on

Hexes are still legal at that width there tight in a box but do go in

Im only a very steady driver but the 3 wasnt too agressive, i had 0 on to start and it just made it a bit too litle steering in tight the 3 just make it perfect rather than ok, and off straights or sweepers it just felt smoother, with 0 it wanted to push weirdly so you was bit on off to balance it. I was running 4mm's

Hi Chris,
The term 'rounded pistons' refer to something we've been doing to the standard pistons for a while now.
If you look closely at a standard piston, the edge where the sidewall meets the upper and lower surfaces is square - i.e there is no radius.

What we've been doing is to introduce a radius on BOTH the upper and lower surfaces to round them in this zone. This has been done ever so technically with an old shock shaft, a dremel and a piece of 600grit wet and dry paper.:lol:

From our testing, we believe this makes the shock better at absorbing all the little bumps and ruts that characterise many of our UK style circuits. The down side is that it will rob you of some large jump landing prowess.

Essentially, it's the same as thinking about the old AE square edge pistons on their B4 and the old round edge pistons on the Losi shocks. The Losi ones were always great at small bump performance whilst the AE ones had better big jump landing performance.

What we've done is to introduce a radius to improve the high frequency, small amplitude reaction to make them a bit faster reacting - a bit like taper pistons but the compression and rebound rates stay the same.

In the early days, we were using Nick Gurnell's machined and tapered pistons and the quality of his work is awesome - but we made a choice to stick with the stock kit pistons and to try to make them work so that we could help TLR22 owners who maybe didn't have the option to try's Nick's offerings.

The 55 size hole will give you more pack than the 54s - the 54's can slap through a jump landing and cause the car to double bounce or give an uncontrolled landing. As Chris has said, playing with pistons is pretty much what we do to alter the car's characteristics from one track to another now that we're happy with our own individual set ups;)

As for the 3 deg Caster, I think you're spot on - the 4mm trailing axle will offset some of the initial aggression from the caster block. As I've said myself, I've not yet found them to be to my liking but there's little denying that Chris has found a set up that's given him a lot more pace recently and he's now regularly too far in front of me.

Ref the +0.75mm hexes - yup, they can be used and still have the car within the BRCA box. Chris ran them pretty much throughout the national season with Schumacher and Ballistic tyres and his car fitted into the BRCA box without any problems - with 4 deg rear toe.

HTH

+1.5mm rear hexes will fit in BRCA box with 4 deg, although snug with some tyres!

The rounded piston team trick works really well, haven't tried them in buggy yet but in 22SCT it transformed bump handling.

Would it not be an idea to cut motor guard so the bottom edge sits on top of lipos?

i know this may cause some pressure on saddles, but will stop chassis tweaking when landing from big air or being hit from behind with another car?

obviously this allows rear to flex and moves some weight back which improves traction on slippier tracks... but i don't like the idea of car flexing front to back, especially not without using a torque wrench to fit screws in everything attached to chassis!

Have you played with front camber with different blocks Russell?

the difference between 0deg and -1deg is massive between under and oversteer with some set ups.

worth playing with at worksop since front tyre is control and surface is predictable on the flat bits.

Frecklychimp: just on what you said in your last post can you give me a little explanation into how the camber effects under/oversteer? Would more front camber make the car more aggressive or less?

Thanks for the advice RE: the pistons, it makes logical sense now it's been explained. I shall probably just leave them standard for now as the tracks I'm running on through the winter are fairly flat and I don't know if I trust myself hacking away at them with a dremel as yet.
As I said in a previous post in response to Delves' setup I have both the 3.5 and 4.5 HRC toe blocks where Chris runs the 4deg. Of the two I have which one would you suggest starting with on the carpet/slippy floor track?
I forgot to mention earlier that my car is fitted with the Cream RC weight that replaces the front wishbone block. Due to this extra weight would you feel it wise for me to keep the motor guard in place as I, same as Frecklychimp am concerned that it may induce too much flex front to back. A friend of mine has been using a side by side saddle mod for his 22 which removes this guard and replaces it with a turnbuckle that stretches from the motor plate to a carbon batter retainer he's made over the lipo's. He's has so much trouble with it that he's gone back to the standard config. I feel the problem has been despite the rigidity the turnbuckle has added the chassis still flexes visibly front to back causing an aggressive weight transfer making the car push horribly on power and turn wildly off power despite what changes he has made.
I've run my 22 as god intended it and like the performance but there's always more you can do......


Chris

With regards to the motor guard, this is exactly what I do :) Sorry I did not explain this more clearly earlier on.

Hi, it all depends on your driving preferance to be honest. If you like a car that is 'safe' then I would go with the 4.5HRC. The 3.5HRC will pivot harder in the turn which might be good if you have a track with lots of hairpins.

HTH

I'm going to have to apologise for not being able to elaborate..

I'm going through the theory but unfortunately it works different ways and can easily be back to front depending on the usual suspects of front grip, tyre shape/profile, toe, roll centre, ackermann, castor, weight etc etc!!!!

so what result i got will differ completely to another set up!

It's a setting i played with on high grip carpet last year and was amazed at the difference.

my set up was completely different to Delves... but was a base set up i found to be good everywhere as a starter... so i can't comment on how it will work with this set up.

my advice... set front at zero and try it... then try again with -1, note effects and see if it suits you.

My point to Russell is the same as Gnarly mentioned earlier... if you change a component then don't forget to go through the basic adjustments again before writing it off or sticking with it... especially when the 22 is so reactive.

you can waste a lot of time changing parts or changing to a completely different set up... when working through the adjustment variables and understanding what the effect is with your driving style can bring same or better results.

sometimes driving round a problem is easier than chasing someone elses results!

I thought so dude... allowing too much forward/rear flex is going to make for a pretty unpredictable car... and a tweaked chassis i reckon!

With Carbon it's a different story... but aluminium has a more limited tolerance.

I bent a motor guard top screw along the way in action with standard build... so this alerted me to the flex/pressures involved in that area of the car.... was a bugger to get it out through gearbox casing too!

I must say ive changed both cars to bleeder caps and there totally

Seem quite a bit softer and a better feel, more even feel through compression

Ran at worksop last weekend set up worked really well as delves set mentioned

As worksop is mainly lower grip jus with odd tiny bit of carpet, i did move all links inboard shorter as mentioned to minic wet conditions

It seemed to b a bit more grip slightly, what wud changing the caster from 3 block to 5 or 10 do extra? As i might try it next time

Russ

The more castor you run, the less low speed steering you'll have.

How do you get the setup sheet downloaded ?

done