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BRCA Insurance
Just a conversation with a friend who attended the BRCA 8th Nitro Nationals at Wakefield !!
At the Drivers/Marshals Meeting at the beginning of the meeting they were all told to Marshal as you would like to be Marshaled ! Nothing new in this you say ! I Agree But to add to this comment was said, you are only insured by the BRCA Insurance whilst you are at you Marshal Point, Not when you go to marshal a car which needs help ! So be careful as you Marshal the Cars at your own risk !! Basically WTF Surely this can't be right, you can't Marshal from your post to remain insured, the whole point of the insurance for me ( and my children ) is the fact you are insured if something does go wrong !! The way it was said to me when I was racing 8th Nitro that everybody that races at a track inside the track perimeter ( catch fencing ) has to be insured to be able to enter this area because of insurance ! If known you are only insured at the post and not to Marshal, the this negates the point of Marshaling and the cost of the insurance for racers ! Thoughts and Comments Please !!!!!!!!! |
I think that if your concerned then you should approach the BRCA directly. They should be able to clear it up for you.
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It's allways been the same.....if you leave the safety of the marshal point you have made that decision/risk assessment on your own, if you feel that it is safe to go your on your own.
On another note if you want a "fun" marshalling experience at a tc track in mendip you are in the fence in a small stall at the fastest part of the track, that makes you run! |
Yes, you are insured at your marshalling point because you have to be there and your safety there is the clubs responsibility. Stepping on to the track to marshal it is assumed you have enough sense to not step out in front of an approaching car, in the same way you won't be able to claim on the drivers insurance if you deliberately step out in front of a 1:1 car.
You need BRCA membership to insure you while you are driving, if your car shoots off and injures someone or something such as the 1:1 cars around the track, your BRCA insurance will cover it. If you think that if you can't work you could end up losing your house, then you should already have your own personal accident insurance which would cover being hit by an r/c car. After all, breaking an ankle by an r/c car on a track hitting you is no different to being hit by a stray r/c car hitting you in a car park or even breaking an ankle by tripping on some stairs. |
From the BRCA insurance rules.
Marshalling is an accepted part of our sport, we race and then we marshal is the built in ethos, though of course ability and age are sometimes taken into consideration. It is also accepted that racing tracks, of all sizes, are dangerous places to be, however somebody will determine a safe place to marshal from (it may be self determined at a club or by an official at a National – it doesn’t matter) while you are at your marshal post/point the insurance cover applies. But when YOU decide to leave that post and retrieve a car then do be aware that YOU have made that decision – it’s then your responsibility to keep yourself safe. You cannot blame and therefore claim off yourself, when you get it wrong. |
I'm fairly sure you used to be covered whilst inside the track perimeter, both on/off marshall points. You wait, next year you wont be covered on your marshall point !
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Hi All
Craig, Terry & Stumpy have it spot on. Once YOU make the decision to leave the marshals post, you have made that call and if a car then hits you it's essentially your fault. The insurance is really aimed at ensuring you, as a driver, or event official, don't have to put your hand very deeply into your pocket when somebody sue's you after a car - heaven forbid - ends up in the spectators.. (which has unfortunatly happended, there have been a few serious accidents over the years) The cover whilst at your post is really an added bonus as it's a carry over from the full sized motorsport world (our policy is actually a scaled down version of the same one the Motorsport association use) However what it doesn't include is - Personal Accident Cover (i.e. where you through your own actions, such as tripping over a perfectly ok track marker, or stepping out right in front of a car basically hurt yourself) This has been offered to the membership a couple of times but always rejected out of hand due to the cost of it (it would basically triple the membership fee) Terry summed up the next bit very nicley:- If you think that if you can't work you could end up losing your house, then you should already have your own personal accident insurance which would cover being hit by an r/c car. After all, breaking an ankle by an r/c car on a track hitting you is no different to being hit by a stray r/c car hitting you in a car park or even breaking an ankle by tripping on some stairs. Any high street broker can provide this, it's not too expensive and well worth it if you don't have some other form of income protection. To finish off The cover has always been like this - it hasn't changed for at least the last 25 years. There are currently no plans to change it. - though it is always reviewed. Last bit is this:- It's everybodies job to ensure safety, if YOU think anything is unsafe at an event it's YOUR responsability to inform race control, be it a poor track markers, marshals post badly sited or protected, dodgy bumper on a car even somebodies driving.. Stay safe out there! Jim Spencer Treasurer (& Insurance Bod) BRCA |
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To quantify the above bit:- The insurance works two ways, you as a driver and for the folks running the race meeting for you. The statement probably was / should have been:- "everybody has to be a member to enter the track perimieter becasue of the insurance." This is because inside the 'Perimieter' lies the 'Track and the Pit Lane'. To the outside, non RC Car Racing world, these terms mean 'A place of known danger'. If the bloke running race control knowingly allowed a Non Member* into 'A place of Known danger' while a Race was in progress and something went pear shaped they would be in the cacky stuff - though fortunatly with our insurance to back them up - to the point of criminal negligence anyway! In short nobody in their right mind would run any model car race without PL cover being in place for everybody competing or going inside the track perimiter - they would be taking a HUGE risk otherwise. Hopefully this explains why the initial statement was made and why you need to be a member to go into a Pitlane at an IC National for example. *NOTE - In some circumstances membership of other bodies will suffice, such as membership of an other countries Governing Body within Europe and the BMFA cover is fine for bashing and some local club level events. Though quite happy to answer questions on this one when the odd occasion crops up (normally somebody on their hols here with their car!) Hope this helps Jim |
Hmmm interesting reading,
I wonder when the first person will say 'sorry I can't move from my Marshall point I'm not insured' Also how far away from the Marshall point are you 'uninsured' |
Well I was the one hit by a 8th nitro car on Saturday at the National at Wakefield.
I Marshalled a car on the straight, which then had an engine cut when put upright, My mistake was to pick it up a second time ! And as on the straight put into the pit lane, Which was nearer to me than my Marshall point. In that fraction of time, another car collided into my ankle. It does make you think though, at race speeds thinks happen / go wrong very quickly !! So I know we all have to take extra care. I'm Currently waiting to get X-rayed as its still that dam painful. I'll let you all know how I get on. |
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As has been said we have third party public liability, if your worried take out personal accident protection. |
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I can only imagine factoring that into the entry fee, then you have all the employeement law to think of - Training, SSOW, Risk Assessments, Accident Books, Riddor Reports - it would destroy the hobby. |
Very interesting post, especially for those who run clubs.
It was my understanding that your marshall 'post' was the track in which area you covered. A 'post' would, in my limited knowledge, need to be explained and outlined, whether this be a chair to sit on/painted 'area' to stand or enlosed compound, maybe even a physical post that you needed to be in contact with. It is very much open to opinion as it does seem vague. Some positions are on the track, but not anywhere near where a car races. Interesting debate which I'll be watching.... I'm sure common sense will out. |
@Jim
Perhaps people could be given the offer 'Personal Accident Insurance' with their membership as an extra |
I think that would be a great idea !!
But then, I now would say that :cry: |
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Hi It's already covered in the Rules. Marshals posts may be a physical construction or may be a self determined place you decide to stand at. Obvioulsy both are behind the track edging - but within the track perimiter. The Common Sense bit is the bit everybody struggles with as people go looking for it all explained in a great deal of detail and it's simply not done like that - even at full sized racing circuits, for example:- The Main Observers posts at Oulton Park are huge breeze block construction, about half a dozen marshals are in each one - but the next flag marshals post is determined by where the bloke in the pickup truck dropped off a couple of fire extinguishers that morning, albeit possibly then adjusted by the Marshal when he got there. They, just like us, have their posts behind the track edging but inside the track Perimiter - just a very large degree of physical size difference! There's actually no debate as such, as NOTHING has changed, just some folks don't actually read the rules, or explain things a bit out of kilter with reality, or expect a high degree of detail which isn't there. This all works on 'Principles' and application of 'Best Practice' as per most Insurance. |
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We looked at this.. If it was done as an inclusion in the membership fee - i.e. everybody has it, but it's very strictly limited to how much for what sort of injury, then you can make it work - but it would literally triple the membership fee* If you make it optional the likely take up (as most people will already have sick pay, income protection etc etc - which is basically the same thing with a different name attached) was estimated, by the broker who's done a few of these, at well under 10% - so it would make it very expensive indeed as then the 'worst case scenario' isn't offset by enough 'better than averages' The cheapest way of getting Personal Accident insurance is therefore to take it out yourself if you haven't already got it via the other personal insurances we're all up to our neck in these days. NOTE *Oddly it was only at the 2010 AGM when this was last offered to the floor, didn't even get a seconder.. but I was asked and therefore got the quote.. |
The 1/8 off road clubs all know this is the case at HNMC there is protection round 5~6 marshal points and at all club events we don't start the heats or finals till all marshals are at there postions.
As stated above this has been the case the clubs should ensure only brca members marshal and pit within the track area as all members should know the rules and on under 12 marshalling nitro. All racers/marshal should have suitable footware. Jim |
Unfortunally it is just one of those things Motorsport is a dangerous and youdo thingsat your own risk
In June i was hit in the leg by a car exiting the pit lane and yes i did look on the straight and then the pit lane before going over the pit lane and there was nothing there by the time i had got my 2nd foot in the pit lane to enter across the straight BANG to late car had wacked me in my leg; It has left me with 8 weeks in plaster and i am know in a leg brace aided with crutches and alot more treatment to come yet; It has caused a severe amount of damage by severe soft tissue injury to top of foot ankles and lower leg and also damaged the top surface of all the bones in the surrounding area Green cross code comes to mind for me when i am at meeting from now on :woot: So this is how easily a accident can happen and occur at any meeting Crtpromachine |
What's amazing is how few people I've spoken to, don't know what the insurance
Covers. Most are under the impression that, if you have a BRCA no. Your covered for anything, especially when marshalling cars. I do wonder how many of the attending drivers, we're unaware or unsure before Kevin Griffin gave a "marshalls briefing" at the rally x national last weekend ? How many of the other classes give a briefing to state, that you are NOT Covered by your BRCA insurance, when you leave your Marshall post to marshal a car. I think this should be be made more important in drivers briefings, than "where the snack van is !! " Another Question I would like to ask Jim... Locally we have a club which race 1/8th rally x, but they are not affiliated to the BRCA. Do we, with BRCA membership, have any 3rd party cover if racing at there events? Or indeed any cover at all ? |
as long as you stand in the marshal point while driving:woot:
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im 100% sure your cover covers you if your anywhere and your car hits somone and injures them, im not 100% sure but i would have thought the club would need to have its own public liability insurance to cover marshals/thier site etc. |
I think this is absolute shite
Apparently marshalling is " voluntary " however if you refuse to Marshall even on safety grounds you will probly incur a penalty So in reality you are forced to Marshall sometimes in an unsafe position I have been clearing a crash with two cars at the top of the straight after shouting " car on straight " very loudly and received a b4 full power to my heel by a relitavly new driver Who said I heard ya shout but assumed you'd cleared it " sorry " Every other driver slowed or drive round And I also shout " clear " once I have cleared a crash on the straight to let people know its safe again to try to avoid this Any way I am self employed for a month I struggled to work properly especially up ladders And I am told this is my fault I marshalled at my own risk . So to avoid injury don't Marshall , but that means you might as well not race Linzi who raced with us for a bit ended up with his full leg in plaster for ages after an incident very simaler to this Again through no fault of his own Why the hell shouldn't marshalls be covered anywhere on the track it's bloody dangerous And if they are not then marshalling should be truly voluntary Some classes or grouos are worse to Marshall than others and at times I have been terrified as cars desperate not ti lose half a second in the z final attempt to take out marshalls then crash and shout at em them burn there fingers revving the car as they Marshall The Bloody thing Personally I think things need to change especially if your injured by someone else's poor driving/ mistake This is a definite problem needs addressing Glad this thread is running |
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If its was unsafe to go on the track and you did and were hit, that's your judgement and your responsible. If you feel you can not retrieve the car safely don it, simples.
As has been said its allways been like this and if your worried about your judgement take out some personal accident insurance. If I'm marshalling a car and the driver is on the power I simply leave it where it is and walk back to my point. Not been peanalized yet as the rule is you must be at your marshal point atte wwtart of the race. If you consider that point to be unsafe then ask to be moved or ask for some better protection. It's not shite, just work within the parameters set out... |
My other half has to use a wheelchair part of the time and she's never been hit by an rc car.......what a bloody stupid comment, and quite offensive actually :mad:
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All this just proves one thing to me...
Hardly any of you have actually read The Rules.. You are sent a Handbook as part of your BRCA Membership, all the rules, procedures etc etc are in there. If you did not know this, then you obviously couldn't be bothered to read it! So forget all this shouting off now about being unable to work and this is all crap etc etc, You didn't/Couldn't be arsed to read the Rules, which are there for all to see, so.... Tough! I can't honestly see a problem. It's always been like this, it's your fault that because of your laziness at reading the Handbook you didn't know it, don't go sprouting off now! If you feel that strongly about it, make sure you have Personal Accident cover or failing that, there's a good For Sale section with oOple. Sell all your stuff, then you won't have to endanger yourselves anymore... |
Just on a side note, and to throw a curved ball in to the mix. With personal injury insurance do the same constrictions not apply? As in you must not put yourself in danger. i.e. you insurance won't pay out as you are deemed to have put yourself in danger being inside a restricted racing zone?
All this drama, but I'll still be there 7.30 on Saturday marshalling at Southport. I'll be the one with the flak jacket on :D BTW if you drive like an arse I WILL pull your car off the track, Just so you know ;) |
I'll ignore the silly comment above, and throw something else into the discussion...
The marshal point has been deemed a "safe" point, and you are covered here. But what if it isn't safe? What if its in direct line of jumping cars, or at the the end of the straight and cars can bounce off and hit you in your safe point. When club members are track building sometimes a marshal point just gets stuck in the ground at a logical point where someone thought a marshal may be needed. I'm sure a risk assessment and sign-off hasn't occurred as to whether it is actually "safe". I'm not trying to raise a point on who's to blame here (I detest blame culture), but if a case went to court, where someone was hit at a "safe" marshal point. The person that defined that point a safe place would be called to account. I'm sure the BRCA insurance would fight it so they were not liable. |
Ok apologies not trying to offend just making a point
Linzi almost was in a wheelchair after his smash he was on crutches for ages It would be interesting if people post there Rc racing Injuries here and how they sustained them to give us an idea of how many injuries come from an individual marshalling being injured by a car or even track malfunctions eg loose carpet slipping on wet astro ECt I am not trying to encourage the blame for a claim crew to come racing but fairs fair if someone is injured and it affects there life there should be some help or compensation or if not they should be allowed to politely refuse to Marshall or ask to change Marshall points if they feel they are in an unsafe position I will start Heel - smashed black and blue while marshalling straight ( affected work ) Thumb - slipped on loose carpet and damaged thumb ligament ( affected work ) ( although I do accept this is a bit if a grey area it's still a injury sustains at racing) Hand burnt raw by driver revving the car full blast as they were marshalled ( affected work slightly ) Toes bashed by car ( didn't affect work to badly but still bloody hurt and bruised ) Minor injuries I know but injuries all the same Generally through no fault of your own What's happened to the rest of you then And would insurance of helped |
Sorry but you put your self on the tack to get hit on the ankle, just because your ran out cars don't slow down, do you cross the road and hope cars/buses slow down?
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Yes your right, I bet more than 50% of racers have never even lifted the cover to the handbook, I've read it, but it's only when something does go wrong are you reminded, that yes you should have taken out some sort of cover for yourself.
If everyone did read the Handbook and took it all in, then we would not even need a drivers / marshals briefing ?? I would like it to be reminded / noted, especially new drivers at drivers briefings. It's something that is important ! Don't forget most clubs let you race up to three times before you need to join the BRCA so those new guys and girls would NOT have read the handbook. It is a fun hobby/sport, but at the same time it can be dangerous. It does not matter if you have been into RC racing 25 years or 25 mins When something goes wrong it does so in a second ! I just want every one to be safe and covered, if they need to be, if it does. Okay I had no cover, I knew I had no cover when I marshalled the car on the straight, I do it like everyone else, you love racing and you want to be marshalled when your racing, so you do your bit. But even after looking and no cars were coming when I left my post, and wearing a hi vis, and the race ref warning of a Marshall on the straight, I still got hit by a car at high speed ! It happens very quick ! |
On the point of "safe marshall points" I personally dislike chairs being placed nr jumps, as you are creating an increased danger to head injurys as your sat lower and cannot move out of the way as quickly as being stood !
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If you get hit/injured by another BRCA member's car/buggy whilst marshalling, can you claim off their insurance?
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The Race Director is responsible for the position of marshalling posts, if you feel it is unsafe, tell them, they are normally busy doing a hundred things but most would be happy to accommodate your concerns.
Right, if your stood at your marshal point, you should be there watching your area of the track, so in theory, you should see any car out of controlling heading in your direction, now, we all know that half the marshals are either in a day dream, having a huff due to a bad run or just watching a car going round the track also, which makes them an easy target to be hit when they step onto the track to marshal, mainly due to them just not paying attention to it all. It would be interesting to see if the BRCA could, not pay for it, but arrange a cover package that you could go for and get a group discount? |
As a voluntary organisation, thats gonna take up a lot of someones time to adminster this.
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