22 base setup
 

its very rare i post setups on here but it appears some people are tiring of their mid motor losi as the cant find a setup that has good rear grip/balance in lower grip uk conditions. hopefully this setup will help restore the love for this awesome car
i was off work for the first six weeks of owning my 22 and was able to put many hours in testing the car mainly at batley buggy clubs outdoor track, a grass/astro track which at the min is bumpy/cut up and slippy as hell in places!!
i have experimented with every tuning option on the car including many piston oil combos inc 4,5,6 hole pistons tapers vs standard etc
the setup below is an absolute joy to drive, so forgiving, locked in and stacks of grip with no signs of any untoward behavior.
i am sure some will instantly dis the piston/oil choice but this wast derived from 60/70 hours at the track testing

the 4 deg squat is acheived by using the HRC 3deg shim with the HRC 0deg shim and the 3deg HRC insert. then just put a 1mm spacer under each side of the speedo/motor mount between mount and the chassis.


hope this helps someone
any questions feel free to ask

Steve,
Would this setup be good on a bumpy, medium grip clay surface?

Clay is not a surface we have much experience of in the uk unless we race abroad. So I cannot really answer that question. It's prob a little over damped and oversprung. If I were racing on a clay track I would prob start with this setup but with 25wt all round and a silver spring on front and maybe a grey spring on the back. But this is a guess. Not quantifiable information!

On a smooth clay track, you can use the kit Setup so far. Has a lot Steering, maybe out the turn a little bit loose on the rear! 1 step softer with the spring in the rear would be good.

On a rough-dusty track, all around 1 softer, with 54 (holes) plates. On tower in front nothing under ballstud!

:thumbsup: Working great!

Thanks Steve. We had a new track open up here and I'm the only one with the 22 in mid motor form so I'm kind of chasing the setup myself. It still isn't a firmly packed surface so there can be a layer of dust on top at times and other times after being swept and watered it can be clay-like. I think I'm going to give your setup a try and work from there.

I have a modified setup from Frank Root's setup that works okay but I have to be really careful when driving the car and I can't really toss it around the track aggressively, which I'm going to have to be able to do in order to keep up with the fast guys here.

Oh okay thanks. I started with Frank Roots OCRc setup and it was okay, a little loose in the rear so I stood up the rear shocks and that helps.

Right now my setup in really hurting on forward traction and I can't get back on the throttle nearly as fast as the rear motor guys, anyone know any changes I can make to improve that? I was thinking of adjusting the anti-squat in the rear but not really sure the right way to go about doing that.

Also, I have a 3.5 deg HRC rear toe block that I haven't installed yet, would that be an upgrade over the kit 4.0 deg LRC for a semi-dusty clay track (med traction)?

If your having problems up against rear motor cars why not rebuild your 22 to rear motor?

What shims should I use on the HRC 4 degree?

On low-grip tracks, you got more traction with 0° antisquat but it decreases the handling over rough parts and bumps! Softer in the rear would be also thing to try.

Grass and astro
 

Ran my mid motor 22 on grass / astro at batley for the first time today.
Ran kit setup, but with 25wt oil all round, 54 piston in rear, 55 in front. Orange springs to front for the last runs, yellow kit to rear. 3 degree anti squat.

Car was pretty poor. Couldn't get the power down on the astro at all. Trying to bring the throttle in on anything other than a straight pointing car ended badly.

New tyres helped a bit ( schu yellow spikes ) but all in all, not great.

Thinking from fellow racers on the day is I need :

HRC block
White springs to rear
Green springs to front

Anything else that will help on this surface ?

As a test I ran my X6 in round 3, same motor speedo, tyres etc and I could really nail it out of every corner, no problem to drive quickly. So my 22 setup needs work, it was really hard to drive quickly as I had to be so gentle with the power....

I also had the same problem I tried lots of things in the end i went to 6 hole pistons as my car felt very unreactive on the bench. And this is where im at currently and feel happy with it in damp conditions on grass and astro track.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9...estrysetup.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Ash

I wanted to give it a fair shake first...just because I don't have the right setup now doesn't mean that it's not possible to get it, that's why I was asking the question.

How do I achieve less anti-squat (more squat) with the rear motor? Changing the shims?

Steve.
Didnt see your set up post when I posted !!
Have now ordered all the bits I think I'll need :)

Cheers
Andy

Has anyone tried the mid motor car with cut bladders like the team drivers are doing with the rear motor car?

I haven't seen anyone mention it on these threads but it is all they are talking about on the U.S. threads.

I cut some spare bladders over the long weekend and have them installed to try this week. Shocks don't feel so bound up with the stock 4 hole pistons.

kommando:

dont know if the mid motor will build properly if you remove the schims but no schims will give you more forward bite.

Okay thanks I might have to try that today

So I went to the track today (new clay track that is just starting to get it's pack but with a layer of dust on top) and played around with the anti-squat on my mid motor. Started at the kit 1 degree and ended up with 4 degrees on anti-squat and was VERY happy with the forward traction with 4 degrees. I also added the 2-4 gram weights to the mid motor weight kit for a total of 58 grams in the rear and my car was HOOKED up.

I was getting better forward traction than the rear motor guys who were just scrambling through different tires and anti-squat settings just trying to get rear grip.

Next time I go I am going to drop in the 3.5 degree HRC toe block and see how that feels, then play around with the 5 degree and 0 degree caster blocks.

Sounds good Kommando98 :thumbsup:

You'll need to post your full setup here please.

I've recently swapped to the 5 deg caster blocks and prefer them.
Rather than running the stock 20 deg kickup + 10 deg blocks, I've increased the kick angle to 25 but reduced the caster to 5 degrees.
The difference is that there is less weight shift forward going into the turns so it feels more balanced.
For me, the corner exit is smoother although entry felt a little sharp for the first few turns but it wasn't worrying - just you could feel it was carving a slightly earlier turn and felt more positive.

Would definitely recommend playing with the caster angles and kick angle shims as these have a noticeable effect on corner entry and exit.

I'm struggling to understand how going from 1 to 4 degree anti-squat gave you better forward traction!

how I understand it, if I want better traction coming out of a corner, or straight, I would want 0 or minimal anti-squat, to encourage the rear end to squat, hence more weight transfer, hence more rear traction. Maybe I'm in the wrong sport if I cannot understand a simple concept like antisquat!

According to the XXX-Cr manual, having more anti-squat will increase intital steering and forward traction. Running less anti squat (or even pro-squat) will give you more on-power steering

The more antisquat the less the car squats under power

When accelerating weight transfers from front to rear. The less the car squats the more of that weight is transferred to the wheels, increasing forward traction
Squat absorbs quite abit of this weight transfer. Therefore the more the car squats the less weight is transferred to the wheels resulting in less forward drive!!


Less antisquat creates more sidebite as when the car squats in a corner centrifugal forces are greater causing more lateral weight change to load up the tyre creating more lateral grip from the tyre ( sidebite)


So to summerize.
More antisquat = more forward drive
Less antisquat =. More sidebite

Hth

My lastest base set up

Front
20 deg kick up
10 deg caster
front link - long tower + 1mm spacer & 1mm spacer hub
Green Spring/35w/1.2mm 6 hole
Shock position middle wishbone Middle tower

Rear
1 deg anti squat
3.5 HRC deg toe in
short wheelbase
Rear link 2-C 2mm spacer tower 3mm spacer hub
rear roll bar 0.9mm
yellow spring/32.5w 1.3mm 6 hole
JC 7inch V wing full gurney

104g rudebits weight under lipo
50g losi rear weight kit

Si

What is the difference between running 20' and 25' rake shim in the front?

It effects total caster 20 kick and 10 deg caster = 30 in total
It will handle in a different way than say 25 kick and 5 caster = 30 in total

This can change the front of the car alot

I know that more rake/less caster will handle differently than less rake/more caster, more caster gives you more exit steering, less gives you more turn in, but what about rake?

Rake will affect the amount of weight shift forward under deceleration - just like anti squat but in reverse.
More rake = less weight shift forward
Less rake = more weight shift forward

This will be more noticeable on natural deceleration as opposed to hard braking (IMO)

I've changed from 20/10 to 25/5 and feel that the car doesn't load up in the corners quite so much and is easier to drive through and out.

Like Si says - worth playing with as it does have a noticeable effect.

Would more rake stop traction rolling? as on my first outing with the car i was having to drive slower to stop it rolling over,although it was hot and dry and i had new tyres
on, i could not drive as aggressively as i would normally with a b4

could you explain rake and where i adjust it for somone who hasn´t got the best english =)
cheers
Till

Till, i may stand corrected but i think its to do with the kick Angle on the front of the car. Looking at the setup sheets it states Kick angle 20' 25' 30' which would tie in with what the lads are talking about above with the 20' and 25'.

@Mugenextreme - 100% correct sir!

@Till - the rake is the front kick angle on the front wishbones. It is a functon of the bent angle on the chassis plate itself and the plastic spacer that fits between the chassis and the front pivot block. The flat plastic spacer does not alter the kick angle so it remains at the standard chassis 25 degree but the wedge plastic washer reduces the overall kick angle by 5 degrees to 20 degrees overall

@Dombrasky - I wouldn't have thought so. The difference that the kick angle has is (IMO) a fine tuning aid - traction roll would be caused by something more drastic. Post a little bit more about your setup and the track surface that you are running on and maybe someone here can help shed some light for you. Possibly also think what is different between your B4 and your 22 and maybe the answer will lie around there??

starting set up for batley
 

As above any help appreciated

Mark

Look back at my setup on this thread. Approx 1 page back. It may look wrong on the damping but I have put many hours on this track with my 22. It really works. I know at least 3 batley regulars and 1 southport member that have switched to this and agree it's really easy to drive!!

Cheers for that steve looks a lot different to my southport set up but i will give it a go :thumbsup:

Mark

Am sure it will be really different!! Batley at the min is really slippy. It's cut up on the grass and the astro is like ice!!

Thank you for your 101 lesson in antisquat:thumbsup:

I was always under the assumption that the more the rear squats, the more rear traction, but the opposite is true. You learn new things everyday!

Mornin Si just wondered what anti squat you run with the above set up ? Thanks

And Mid motor or...
And Clay or...

[QUOTE=Gnarly Old Dog;494666
@Dombrasky - I wouldn't have thought so. The difference that the kick angle has is (IMO) a fine tuning aid - traction roll would be caused by something more drastic. Post a little bit more about your setup and the track surface that you are running on and maybe someone here can help shed some light for you. Possibly also think what is different between your B4 and your 22 and maybe the answer will lie around there [QUOTE]

Thinking more about what you said Gnarly,Im gonna try a longer front link and maybe 2mm under rear tower link to stop rear rotation
If this doesnt cure it, il post my setup,its on grass- astro by the way

Longer front link for sure :thumbsup:. I run a long front link almost always - only going to a shorter one in the wet and slippery.

Also - 2mm under the link on the rear tower is a good move - but I do run the rear link short - with the outer in either the E position or the B - with 2 or 3mm under the ball stud at the wheel.

If you're running Schumacher minispike tyres - cutting an outer row off the rear will help reduce traction roll without affecting forward drive noticeably.

The other thing would be that the kit front spring is (IMO) far too soft for UK style high-bite tracks. I would recommend swapping this out for a green front spring to begin with - if your traction roll is induce by the front end being too soft (spring along with short front link), changing both of these might well get you a long way towards sorting the car initially for you.
HTH