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-   -   F1 appeal rules in Brawn's favour (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22448)

mark christopher 15-04-2009 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swayze08 (Post 229898)
oh good then mybe jenson can bag up enought points to win before other teams catch up and i know this is off topic but do u think next years rule change of most wins will make f1 better or worse
is it points or wins? all he needs is another 5 wins

Fabs 15-04-2009 01:27 PM
It's not playing up, look at the results, all the three diffuser teams are ahead of the competition, then you have red bull with a car that is very very different to the others.

swayze08 15-04-2009 01:32 PM
its not on wins this year mark they decided against it gonna wait till next year

Lee 15-04-2009 01:55 PM
Yeah if they were playing up they would at least try and get a few points on the board. Right now they are just gash

emtee 15-04-2009 02:08 PM
I hope Brawn 'n Button do the business... I've got 'em both in my Fantasy F1...

Count up those Fantasy F1 points and weep losers.... :thumbsup:

BagofSkill 15-04-2009 02:10 PM
Acurate analysis has a double deck diffuser worth about 0.5-0.6 seconds per lap on the Brawn (because of the way they scoop air in under the nose) and 0.4-0.5 for Williams and Toyota.

You might see brawn pull out a bit more of a gap now because they don't have to pretend the diffuser is only a small advantage. I can tell you now none of the Non-diffuser cars were sandbagging to try and make the Brawn look faster than it really is.

telboy 15-04-2009 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BagofSkill (Post 229877)
The thing that isn't being covered by mainstream media is the fact that the FIA told Renault at least, in 2007 and 2008 that they couldn't use the loophole. Renault has sent several questions to Charlie Whitting some worded, some including technical drawings about options to make a double deck diffuser and each time they were told 'No'.
Then he flipped and allowed it this year. The incriminating thing to me is that as the furore grew Charlie stopped talking to Renault about the matter- actually stopped answering emails and ignoored the team.

And the ruling was never in doubt by the way because once Max Moosley got up and told the papers in Melbourne it was ok, the die was set. And I know first hand the Melbourne stewards were instructed by the FIA to pass the diffuser cars. The appeal was a formality.

What bugs me is that the FIA set out to reduce downforce by 50% this year, and also make it easier to overtake by reducing turbulence. The cars with double deck diffusers currently have almost the same downforce as last year, and make juast as much turbulent air- thus making it hard to follow them. Well done FIA, soon, we'll undo all the good racing that's been seen on the slower 14 cars so far this year!

By the sounds of it the 'double deck' bit isn't on the diffuser itself, but on the 'deformable structure'. There is a 150mm section in the middle of the diffuser that protects the car etc. in the event of a rear impact. The diffuser aparently had to match a straight line across the top edge, but the dformable structure is classed as bodywork, and this is where some designers have found a 'grey area' and taken advantage of this by creating a double diffuser that exceeds the specified dimensions.
So, technically they are 'legal' because the diffuser section does actually conform to the reg's.
I don't see as its going to take anything away from the racing, how can it? If the other cars close the gap on Brawn then thats a good thing surely?:thumbsup:

Northy 15-04-2009 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by emtee (Post 229955)
I hope Brawn 'n Button do the business... I've got 'em both in my Fantasy F1...

Count up those Fantasy F1 points and weep losers.... :thumbsup:
Ha, I actually have some cold hard cash on JB and Brawn ;)

G

telboy 15-04-2009 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabs (Post 229937)
It's not playing up, look at the results, all the three diffuser teams are ahead of the competition, then you have red bull with a car that is very very different to the others.

But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:

Northy 15-04-2009 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by telboy (Post 229965)
But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:
I chatted with Mr. C about the Red Bull on Sunday night, but he might have been a bit too drunk to remember! :lol:

G

telboy 15-04-2009 02:34 PM
Did you take advantage of his drunkeness G and get load of confidential info out of him to sell to ferrari or something? :)

Its looking good in the wet conditions anyway!, they would have blown everyone away if the conditions had remained just 'wet' in malaysia.

bodgit 15-04-2009 02:35 PM
Am I right is saying the teams are on a limited budget this year. If so then I assume they have already spent a fortune getting their aerodynamics right to what they thought was legal already. How much is it going to cost to develope a new diffuser and aerodynamic bodywork to suit and will be over budget in which case they cant do it.

Fabs 15-04-2009 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by telboy (Post 229965)
But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:
RB will have to redesign the whole rear end to adapt such a diffuser. What has made their car the best of the non diffuser cars is preventing them from having that diffuser on their car. Basically they'll need a new gearbox, suspension etc... a whole new rear end, instead of just aerodynamics appendices. So they have a choice of either carrying on developping this car as it is and not use the diffuser, or scrap their rear end, go back to a more conventional one and be at the same level as the other teams...

Fabs 15-04-2009 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodgit (Post 229976)
Am I right is saying the teams are on a limited budget this year. If so then I assume they have already spent a fortune getting their aerodynamics right to what they thought was legal already. How much is it going to cost to develope a new diffuser and aerodynamic bodywork to suit and will be over budget in which case they cant do it.
There's no budget cap this year at all, but teams are trying to reduce their budget nonetheless.

Yes it is costly for the teams, for example yesterday there were some brand new just painted engine covers in the workshop, these will NEVER be used as they were for the old diffuser, which is just basically being scrapped. All in all, all the molds, parts and design time spent on the "old" parts has been a waste of time and money.

DaveG28 15-04-2009 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BagofSkill (Post 229957)
Acurate analysis has a double deck diffuser worth about 0.5-0.6 seconds per lap on the Brawn (because of the way they scoop air in under the nose) and 0.4-0.5 for Williams and Toyota.

You might see brawn pull out a bit more of a gap now because they don't have to pretend the diffuser is only a small advantage. I can tell you now none of the Non-diffuser cars were sandbagging to try and make the Brawn look faster than it really is.
Seems various people misunderstood my point somehow. Of course they're not sandbagging, but it has been in their interest to say "the diffuser is worth a second a lap so we're really the best legal car!" to both the FIA and their internal management, than to admit their car is crap regardless! That's how I meant by overplay it!

Gonky 15-04-2009 02:46 PM
yeah, no budget restrictions but i think teams are only allowed 8 days or so testing time on the track... doesn't stop the bigger teams throwing money at problems and having the simulators and wind tunnels on 24-7 though

DaveG28 15-04-2009 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by telboy (Post 229965)
But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:
Exactly, this is what I meant by saying they've overplayed the difference!

DaveG28 15-04-2009 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabs (Post 229980)
There's no budget cap this year at all, but teams are trying to reduce their budget nonetheless.

Yes it is costly for the teams, for example yesterday there were some brand new just painted engine covers in the workshop, these will NEVER be used as they were for the old diffuser, which is just basically being scrapped. All in all, all the molds, parts and design time spent on the "old" parts has been a waste of time and money.
But the same would be true for brawn etc if the appeal had gone the other way?

bodgit 15-04-2009 02:55 PM
good point. Someone at ferrari must be getting their arse kicked for not seeing the loophole

swayze08 15-04-2009 03:56 PM
awww well u have to admit these 2 thing. 1, since ross brawn and jon todd have left ferrari have gone down hill and 2 its a bout time ferrari were chassing the rest of the field i personly think its quite funny


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