So If we are incorrect and as total Newbie suggests its doesn't boil down to keeping the sponsors happy and forgetting the drivers pockets, why does it have to be spiked rubber tyres?

I'd be happy running the VBC, or atleast trying them because the reports from other countries seem really favourable.

I think thats called a compromise?

Chris I think your'e right, the 2nd run on the mini's from new is the best but they get slower run by run after that, granted not by alot. Foams would be consistant run after run, round by round.

I think some people are also losing site about why this idea is popular, its about saving money not, spending loads to get all the different compounds and truing them down to nothing.

Interesting to start reading more support for this from the low ranks of the meeting, (thats me) rather than the A final faithful, everythings fine as it is.

Hows it saving money?! For me and other racers like me using worn tyres from elsewhere - it'd cost me money I don't want to spend.

If you want to save money run a 'full spike' style tire or harder compound. Both should easily last the duration of the series and probably the next one too.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and assume you don't want to do this because it will be slower, and I agree. That's why if we all started running foams and there was an advantage to truing them down to a slither and getting one run out of them, you would have to do it, or you'd accept been slower. Well if your going to accept that, see my suggestion above, if not then you'll be left truing tires.

The reason behind the decision was quite clearly stated by the club chairman.
The club will not risk losing the use of any of its venues by allowing activites which could potentially cause damage.

just spent the last 20mins reading every reply and most if not all are pointless, the rule is no foams, end of,argue all you want there banned,

:thumbsup:

It always seem that the people that say "foams are cheaper" are people that haven't run foams for any period - being as anybody that has would tell them that foams (while faster) are quite easily the most expensive way to go, along with why so many touring car series have advocated rubbers (to save competitors' money).

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

End of story! At which point there should not even be a discussion going on, here, at all.
People that want a rules change should wait until next year, and make their submission to the chairman at that time.

Only just seen the clubs statement re additive damaging the floor.

Fair play - it's the main argument that really makes sense to me.

del...

Unless I'm reading it wrong, I think all Andy is saying is he understands why the decision has been made.

John.

You read it right :)

Andy

The issue at the world, was that there was a control additive, and people were using other additives, as the control one didn't work.

Right, in buggies, you get no advantage to trying them down skinny, but they do need truing to make them round and take out wear from running camber. You can't run down to soft on the shore rating, as you get grip roll, and additive just makes it worse.

Alsom they only then work if the track is 100% carpet, put a bit of shiny on the corners, and they are pants.

We allow them at our club, and a lot of drivers go back to rubbers as it makes the cars easier to drive.

These are the bald tyres i used and had loads of steeringhttp://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/...4/e716acc0.jpg

Impressively knackered Matt.

Well fair enough you've all convinced me. Foams must be crap.

£6.50 a car set that lasts a season with better than rubber performance - what was I thinking?

I keep reading about additive? How many people are saucing their rubber tyres? Most additives these days are developed for rubber and i've raced at clubs where its commonly used and it makes a massive difference.

I've got fed up with this, seems people who do this hobby are loaded and money saving is of no concern, anyone who suggests such a thing must be a fool, lets all keep throwing money at it!

But can anyone please tell me for about the fifth time of asking why can we not try the VBC RUBBER tyres? Why must it be spiked tyres? And when does a spiked tyre become illegal because its worn down and its no longer spiked.

Only person who's said they were cheaper was you, but I'm sorry the facts suggest quite the opposite to be true.
In all my years running foam tyres I've never had a set last a season - and faster on the flat sections doesn't neccessarily equate to better performance, just faster on flat. But again, it still shouldn't justify all the other Batley members buying them when they already have tyres that meet with the club leadership's approval.

The person that said they are cheaper is the man running them in the first place and looking at what he did I completely believe him. Anyway lets leave foams alone. I'm more than happy to see the members your talking about spend thick end of twenty quid a set every round.

What I was saying is could we try the VBC rubber tyres? Simon asked and was told no because they aren't spiked. I'd just like this to be confirmed and maybe a reason for it?

Yet another exaggerated tale. :rolleyes:

Them vbc's are £22 a set with postage and it is advised that the inserts are no good , I dunno how long they will last as I have never tried them but if you are on a tight budget I'm sure a set of mini pins could last two rounds @ chadderton that's £7-£8 worth of tyre per meeting as you could cut the insert out and acetone the wheels to re-use only having to buy a new set of tyres every other meet. Considering most people will have spent around £500-£1000+ on a car , radio, elecs spares ect I don't think the cost of tyres are a factor.

Get off your high horse Andy Cotton, this topic was put to bed before you started it. See my post re: what I and many others are spending, see Tom's post re: how racing on foams escalates.

Exaggerated? Don't see how, £8+£2+£7+£2= £19. Looks like the thick end of 20 to me. Sorry you're going to come back and say you're going to reuse the inserts, fine. £8+£7=£15. Still only getting a fiver back from that twenty!

I didn't want to be on anything, let alone a high horse, but that was a great idea in a open tyre competition and I see its just been slapped aside with no real justification. Just arguements that could be applied to both sides.

I agree with Andyp, with the amount of money we invest in the hobby, tyres at an individual event isn't an issue, but it does add up and anywhere we can reduce costs to everyone I'm all for trying and see where it goes. If it did turn in to a 12th style tyre war I'd be saying we should look at it but did Simon have lots of sets? Did he have them trued to elastic bands on wheels, did he use additive, did he chunk them and replace them every run, did they wear or change over the day or did his car come off covered in tyre dust? The answer to all these is No!

And for most of the reasons above I'd like to try the VBC's. Yes they are £22 a set and we'll probably want to spend another £4 on better inserts but I'm sure they'd give alot of the benefits of foam without being foam.

You could always take a set of worn yellows and dremmel off the lumps of spikes?

I'll simply refer to my previous post:

'If you want to save money run a 'full spike' style tire or harder compound. Both should easily last the duration of the series and probably the next one too.'

It fits the club rules, fits the spirit of off road racing and everyone will be happy. Currently for ~90%+ everybody's happy with the rule, entries are over subscribed at the meetings, the series is looking very healthy. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

So because he didn't, you're saying others wouldn't?

That's in fact what happens, in any foam-tyre class.

I would, and I suggest I could do it an nobody could catch me.

Somebody would, maybe after one run, and it would piss them off and it might chase them off.

If you're saying they don't, then is shows a lack of experience with foams.

Of course not, that would be the corner of the hall where I'd have my tyre-truing machine.

Really? :rolleyes:

Because for everyone that runs foam-tyred cars KNOWS you should have a minimum of one set per run on hand, even just in case you chunk a tire, and different compounds available dependent on the ambient temp and to adjust as the traction comes up and the racing line rubbers in. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure everyone that runs rubbers says the same tyres they arrived at the track with last week are the same ones they'll be running next week and the week after and the week after that and the week after that...


Again andy110m - why should all the Batley members feel forced to buy foam tyres because of one guy going against the norm, when they've already invested in rubbers that meet the rules set aside for the season?

Kayce, if you are talking 12th or saloon 10th on a high grip carpet, then yes, but on buggies, rolling diameter isn't to much of an issue, and you need to keep some meat on the foam as if you true them to far, you lose control of the chassis attitude over any jumps. A decent set of foams, mounted on rims correctly, should last a lot longer than a set of pins or spikes, but they do handle differently, and any shinny stuff, and the foams get clogged with dust and lost lots of grip.

Sorry DCM, but my experiences are based on having run foams on buggies on carpet the last 5 winters - and my observances trackside. I don't care as I have tyre sponsors, but for the first-timers trying to compete I feel it's going to put them at an unfair disadvantage. IMHO

Reference Foam Tyres

During the first round of 2011/12 series it was brought to the club’s attention that foam tyres were being used at the meeting,

We have been asked to clarify our position on the use of foam tyres at future meetings.

After discussion between officials, the club has decided that the use of foam tyres will not be allowed at future meeting as there is no guarantee that additives would not be used if foam tyres became the favoured tyres as additives could potentially damage the floor., This would result in repair costs that the club could not afford.

As of round two only rubber style spike tyres will be allowed, (e.g. dboot, mini pins) as traditionally used at 1/10th off road meeting.

Please contact me via PM if any more information is required as we do not wish this matter to become a forum debate.

Stephen Lawson
Chairman
Batley Buggy Club

Hi Guys, I can now see why Kayce isn't keen on foams, he has a tyre sponsor and could possibly be using additive because he believes he can get away with it. Of course I joking about that but I can't understand why people think its not an issue with rubber but would be with foam.

Come on guys lets keep this sensible. As DCM says 12th true tyres for reason that don't apply to us, as did touring cars. But we need the harder compound and for that reason we have no need of truing them and in fact it would be a disadvantage. If anyone had a truer in the corner making alot of mess I'm sure a stern word would be had.

As for the next issue, the Batley members having to buy one set of foams, or lets assume they puch the boat out and buy two for the crazy money of £14.

I'm sure they have to buy tyres at some point, they aren't going to buy one set of mini's and expect them to last all year are they?

Tom asked about why not run Blues or full spikes, because they aren't fast. Simple, they last but are slow. So why not have fast and last? Simon will confirm but I think he said he lost 1mm on the outside diameter, so 0.5mm over the course of the day at round 1. But I can see this isn't idea isn't popular so as I've already said, what was I thinking?

Steve I can see you don't want people to discuss this but I can't really understand why? It doesn't put any bad light on the club and if fact, we are all in agreement, its a fantastic series run by a great club. At the end of the day its just a discussion, that I hoped was to be constructive. Your statement is simple and to the fact as a statement should be, just be nice to get some of the reasoning behind it and a view why the VBC's shouldn't be allowed. Again I think they'll be fast at Chadderton and being designed for indoor or tarmac, they should give a really good life span. Oh and they are made out of that stuff you guys all love buying, Rubber!:p

That is outright crazy nutcase talk. I've mounted thousands of foam tires, and maybe one in 100 requires little or no truing.
And the "foam dust mess in the corner" is something you can't stop, if you're going to allow foams.

I have rubber and foam tyre sponsors, it makes no difference to me either way. I can get any tyre I want, in any hardness I want, any time I want, and I have both a home and portable truing machine. I don't care!
What I'm trying to support is the idea of NOT making it more expensive for the guys that don't have foams and already have suitable rubber tyres - along with repeatedly pointing out the Batley Club organizers have already made their decision regarding the 2011-12 season.
End of story!

BUT, you keep trying to twist the discussion around into something that's not rational, with inaccurate information, serves no point - and does nobody any good except for YOU because you want to run foams.

Contact Stephen Lawson (Batley club chairman) here via PM, stop rattling cages and let it go. ;)

OK, my last post on this issue.

If everyone started running foams I guarentee that I would be turning up with multiple sets of different compound/diameter tires, and would definitely use more than one set in a day. I know this because someone with a lot of foam tire off road experience has told me what it's like. So if you wanted to be on the 'fast tire', like you do now with rubber, you would have to do the same.

Secondly, regarding the spike issue, why not contact Steve about it, as he stated if you want more information. I have my own ideas of why they have the rule they have, but to get the correct answer Steve is probably your best bet.

Any chance of useing sponge tyres?

Would that be natural sponge or synthetic sponge. LOL :confused: :confused: :confused:

Sorry, incorrect, you will still need to try them after making them, to get them round and all the same size, just no need to true them during the day.

[/QUOTE]

Potentially damage can come from all these shock oils, super glue, cleaning aerosols and even 12volt batterys,

some might say they are legal.

Hey Andy,
correction to my earlier threads.... im going to use new tyres on Sunday! and I can't help but think of you as I do it, and I laugh, as I don't care... im just a rebel... :thumbsup: ha ha. See you Sunday mate.

Hi Chris, I'm really looking forward to Sunday, the last meeting was fantastic, and I too will have new boots on each car as I'm sure will most people.

I'm completely fine with that, the point I wanted to discuss is would foam make racing cheaper and attract even more people longer term into the hobby. Simon was again out with his foams on Sunday, another day for him with next to no wear, great grip and then back in his box for the next meeting where they'll offer exactly the same performance as last time.

However that said Tom and I discussed this topic at Worksop and he's convinced me this would go wrong from the top down. Simon and every day racers are really happy with what he's got but the top guys would want the best and nothing less. To get to the best Tom was suggesting he'd be turning up with at least 10 sets of foams, all different compounds, different diameters to find the last 10th. And thats when this idea falls down because what Tom's describing has a name, its called a tyre war and thats in nobodys interest so I guess we have to stay as we are, spending lots of money on lots of new tyres. Or at least a set a meeting as Chris has honestly admitted. He wants to do well so he's going to use new tyres, no one can blame him for that but if used ones, like the set he used at Worksop, were every bit as quick would he be using new ones?

Anyway I think we've covered this academic topic and reached an conclusion that no one can argue against. Whilst the theory is sound, in practice it would be flawed by human nature.

So I'm going to sit here, watch the rest of the England game, glue my tyres up and look forward to what I'm sure will be another great meeting on Sunday.:thumbsup:

Havent looked at this thread for ages, but reading the last post, couldn't resist :)

There already is a tyre war ! Always has being, always will be !

Look at the top lads pit tables and you'll see (as I did at the last meeting) masses of brand new tyres gluing up, no doubt with different inserts, tyre types etc, all to find the best performing combo.

For the average club racer, a foam tyre war is no different to a rubber one, with the exception that you (the average jo) will spend much less in the long run.

Top drivers (who possibly don't buy their own tyres ?) will always look for the extra speed and advantage if it doesn't hit them in the pocket. For the rest of us, anything that makes the hobby cheaper is good news IMO.

I too will be gluing new tyres for Sunday. Anyone who reckons older ones are as good is just kidding themselves, still won't win though :)

Im looking forward to Sunday too.

I would re-use my last tyres except iv bought a Centro C4.1. So no point starting out on used tyres. Start with confidence on new and can make better informed setup changes...

See you Sunday mate.

****

:eh?: Hogwash

Bl**dy foams
 

Iv only just seen this one and thought id add my bit. I spent quite a while racing against simon at southport using his "wonder" foams. I was always of the opinion they should have been banned and were not intended for off road buggys. If for no other reason than its not in the spirit of off road racing.

I also agree there is no way you could just glue them on, they would need to be trued and run in to the camber angles, again where does this end. Its simple physics the tyre would work better when the angle is matched that of the buggy. I also think as tom says if this was the route you were going to explore then you would need to start off with a few different compounds and also different diameters, i imagine larger diameters would have the advantage of some tyre compression and the smaller for a lower polar moment and also roll centre, which all leads to more testing and money for extra sets.

As for the traction compound i think that needs to be avoided at all costs. At the end of the day its toy car racing and needs to be fun so why make it even more hard work. I no longer race any more but as its something that used to frustrate me when i was racing so thought id share my views.