I have to say, go with either the Cat SX3, or the FS2. The Cat has only just come out, so is bound to have a few niggles, than the FS2, which has been around for a bit longer, and will have most of the niggles ironed out by now.

I kysosho is also one nice looking piece of kit. :thumbsup:

The SX3 is a fantastic car, and it's a British company (although some of the bits are made abroad) also Schumacher sponsor this site to go to the big race meetings! ;-))

DerbyDan, thanks for the offer of popping in with my car. I will try to do that, the next week or two I have things to do on fridays but if I can make the time I definately will do.

Im pretty sure that this is something I want to do, I was hooked since my days as an 8 year old trundling my Madcap round Burton Latimer community centre. I only gave up then as my parents didnt share my interest and my £5 a week pocket money just didnt cut it against the Losi XX and whatever else was hot property at the time. Then women and booze distracted my for a good few years but Im back on track now and want to pick up where I left off, and get winning a few nationals.... :lol:

What I need right now more than anything is somewhere I can go in and around Kettering to get some serious hours of practice in without the competition of racing to tempt me into pushing it too hard too soon. I have only once so far been able to open up the throttle in anger and it almost took off (literally, the nose went skyward and pulled a huge wheelie!)

With regards to the other posts, thanks for your input guys! I think I agree with the general consensus, the short list of 3 has become 2. So its now a straight fight between the FS2 or SX3.

There is obviously the sensible aspect to consider of sticking with Kyosho to have the luxury of some parts being inter-changeable between cars, and then there is Schumacher who's factory is only 20 mins from my front door so would like to do my bit to support local business :p

Ok so thats not a good reason but I am drawn to the SX3.

How do belt drives compare to shaft drives on 4WD cars?

You were doing well getting £5 a week as an 8yr old back then!! I must admit that I never raced (& still don't) on a massive budget... back in the community centre days I always ran my Mardave Cobra on cheap stick pack SCRs & mild modified motor... but on such a small circuit it was enough to challenge for the top spot most weeks against Simon Cook with his 4wd Lazer ZX!:D

Recognise either the blue Cobra or Blue/Silver/Red Cougar1??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...tgroupshot.jpg

As you've found out - with the new brushless & LiPo technology you can buy all the power & speed you need... & more. The beauty is that for off road racing you don't necessarily have to buy the most up-to-date speedos/motors or batteries to be competitive. Wheels & tyres, meeting entry & travel costs will be your biggest expense.

I have to confess, I dont recognise any of your cars specifically but they certainly bring back the memories of my time at BLCC with cars ranging from the latest in high tech to Madcaps (mine) and I think I even remember a monster truck (were they called Midnight Pumpkin??) being wheeled out once or twice. They were the good old days.... :thumbsup:

I've just got back into it myself, and as mentioned above once the initial outlay has been made it's just tyres and travel costs that will cost any real money. When I last raced about 10 years ago I had to have 3 or 4 motors, 5 sets of cells, motor comm truer etc etc and the cost was horrendous!

I don't remember the acetone trick being around when I last did it either so even wheels can be recycled now!

Personally I think it's a very valid point to support local business, it's a good thing that companies like Schumacher and Mardave are around, and I do think spares etc for them are quite a bit cheaper and more commonly available than some of the Japanese manufacturers (only my personal point of view though!)

I don't think I used to glue on my tyres... or use inserts! - until the soft compounds came out they were ok just stretched over the rims LOL!:D

Skye; The Cougar was the car I raced when I first started at Burton Latimer - I also won my 1st ever trophy with it, for 2nd in the A up at the Rockingham club. The Cobra replaced the Cougar & won many a race up at the community centre aswell as a decent showing in the Northants Schumacher challenge series :thumbsup:

Ok, so I took the car to a large empty car park last night to give it a proper blast and it is a handful! Admitting there was not a lot of thought regards setup (an area I need to learn!!) the only thing I did was raise the suspension a little to accomodate the bumps in the tarmac and odd nasty looking loose stone. I know doing this was not conducive to maximum traction but even so..... :o

After a few blasts up and down with neat tucked in turns I decided to shoot it down the straight flat out. It didnt just wheelie, it proceeded to go vertical, scratching all of the motor cover and underside of the wing before completing the manoeuvre by back flipping onto its roof!!

After this I was a lot more gentle when getting on the throttle so lesson learned I guess. However, on future runs when I hit top speed it wasnt starting that was the problem, it was stopping. Unless I started braking 25m before the end of the road I found it impossible to break without the the arse overtaking the nose...

Now this may partly been down to ride height as I say, and also the fact that I was doing the flat out runs on the downhill stretch of the car park which is obviously going to emphasise any weight shift forward but I was still surprised by this behaviour.

It always gives a conundrum regarding weight distribution, I could hold the arse down with some rear end weight. But then this would surely only compound the acceleration issues with a light front end!?

The other question this test drive last night raised, was can you actually ever go full throttle in a race? The time it took for me to hit top gear, travel maybe 40m at top speed and then stop it again without it spinning through 180 degreees (horizontal axis) must have been a total distance of maybe 80m. Do many tracks have 80m straights? And this is with the advance timing set at ZERO!! :wtf:

One other thing, the toss driver of the day award goes to me as well. :thumbdown:

I have always been a sticks man but changed to a wheel for the first time with this car, so as well as getting used to the car I have the handset to get used to as well. In the first few minutes of driving it, when going down the hill at maybe 80% throttle, I meant to hit the brake but instead hit the throttle full power. I knew what I wanted to do but my brain just didnt compute the to the trigger finger..... Cue the car slamming flat out nose first into a raised concrete kerb. :cry: I ran over to it fearing the worst, but to my surprise it was 100% intact. It had mounted the kerb and consequently scratched the underside of the front lip in a big way, but that was the only damage at all which I was surprised and relieved to see!

I didnt do that again either though so I guess its all part of the learning curve to handling the relentless power of this beast.

Once I have got it down to Moto Arena and given it a proper track workout I will have more idea of where it stands, but last night was enough to tell me that fun times lay ahead...... :woot:

That's the best solution really, bring it down to the track to give yourself an idea of what we race on and there will be more than enough people willing to offer help and advice to make the car more drivable for you until you get used to it and can handle any extra speed etc.

But as you say, all part of the learning curve and it's certainly a lot of fun! :thumbsup:

Thanks Gonky, I will hunt you out when I get down there...:lol:

I cant make it next Tuesday as I am going to Royal Ascot for the day to try and fund the purchase of my 4wd :thumbsup: but John from MA said I can use the track on a Wednesday morning so I might see if its availble next Wed to put in a few laps on the previous nights circuit without any pressures of racing.

Then depending on how all that goes, I will try to get down for the following Tuesday night meet.

Skye; thats pretty much how any brushless equipped 2wd buggy handles on a dusty tarmac/concrete surface, you will find that as soon as you run you car on a proper track with the correct tyres the car will become much more driveable ;)

Moto Arena's indoor track is perhaps more challenging than most with such power - it requires a very measured approach, it took me a while to get the hang of it... though I don't now how on earth the top guys manage to get round so fast aswell as keeping it clean :eh?:

How is it more demanding Dan, is it down to an intricate layout or something else? I am really looking forward to getting down there next wednesday morning if I can so that I can put down some laps with the pressure off. My intentions are simply to try and drive error free laps at minimal speed and slowly wind it up as I get the hang of it.

How do you accurately measure the front and rear ride heights? Is there a tool you buy for doing this? I have tried with a vernier caliper, but with only limited success. Also, do you measure the height of the wishbones at the lowest point or do you measure the underside of the chassis itself?

Compared to touring car racing where small accurate changes can make all the difference.. in buggy racing, set-up is alot less critical it seems - especially if you are just starting out.

A good starting point is to set the car so it rides with the rear wishbones just below level & set the front so its about the same... if you want to measure the height for future reference, measure it from the u/side of the chassis (I use a steel rule if I can be bothered). Set yourself a smidge of negative camber all round (top of wheel leans into the car) & so long as you have the correct tyres & built the car to the book you should be ok ;)

MA is a tricky track to master simply because of the different surfaces - carpet with differeing levels of grip, Plastic sheeting (protects features of the on-road track beneath) & the bare tarmac combined with the often large & tricky jumps & ramps means that any set-up is just really a compromise & achieving a clean lap is quite a challenge! But a good race is also very rewarding :thumbsup:

SOME shaft driven 4wd cars suffer excessinve amounts of torque reaction due to motor placement and thus direction of rotation relative to the rest of the transmission .... the FS2 isn't one of them (there is a reason the motor points the opposite way to most other cars!!)

Belt driven cars often feel a little "softer" in terms of throttle response which some people like.

Shaft driven cars tend to have very well sealed drive trains so so maintenance is both less frequently required and less extensive when it is needed (I rebuild my FS diffs twice a year if that, barely anything gets in!) where as belt drive cars have more open transmissions which can get full of crud.

Other than that it is down to the handling dynamics your after which car you choose.

The FS2 is super easy to drive, easy to set up (can just about be treated as a one-setup-fits-all car) and is never a handful even if the setup isn't 100% perfect. It's character is forgiving, rides the bumps like nothing else and has very strong traction. It is also a strong and reliable car that if it does break then it's normally not to the point the run is over, things tend to crack rather than shatter.

The SX3 obviously hasn't been out in the hands of joe public yet but watching some of the team drivers pilot them around they look more stable, predictable and generally more balanced than the SX/SX2. There is no way that anybody could say they don't look good.
I have heard that there is a potential transmission issue but the truth of that is I guess we won't know till it gets in joe public hands.


I know which one I would recomend, probably obvious it the FS2, but before buying any new car please please get hold of one to try, even if it's just a couple of laps.
Not all cars suit everybody, that said I have only come across one person who wasn't happy with the FS and I think we could ahve got him comfortable with the car if he'd worked with us.

I will say though that if you like the RB5 then you will almost certainly fall in love with the FS2 ... it's similar in feel but just MORE of everything :)

Thanks for taking the time to put all that together Roger, everything you say makes sense and is clear to understand for a relative novice. :thumbsup: As a novice to 1/10 electric 4wd then the Kyosho sounds the way to go to be honest, easy set up, low(ish) maintenance, high performance.... Im sold. Kyosho Lazer FS2 coming my way, just a case of when now I guess. Im an impatient and sometimes irrational person when it comes to shopping and spending money so every fibre of my body is itching to get one asap, but the sensible part says to hang fire for a month or two until I can afford it without resorting to living on the breadline for a few weeks. The RB5 hasnt left me much change out of a grand and whilst some things such as the charger could be used for both, in most cases I would need to buy all the electrics again for the FS2 so would prob have another £700 or so outlay to get it up and running. £1600 in the space of little over a month would hurt the pocket somewhat....

Dan, what is the best way to make ride height adjustments? At present I just have the car set up as per the kit instructions with the only customisation being the springs wound down on the shocks to increase the spring compression tension a little. Would you suggest moving the shocks to other mounting positions?

Yes to alter the ride height you simply wind the threaded collers on the shocks up & down to suit. The spring length should be such that it will allow ride height adjustment without affecting the pre-load on the spring, I would leave the shock angles as Kyosho outline in the instruction manual for the time being.

In answer to one of your questions, there are occasions when you would either never or very briefly reach full throttle on a track, at my club last night I was on full chat for maybe 1 second per lap!

Some drivers seem to use the speedo as an on/off switch, ie blipping to full throttle all the time, but they tend to be the drivers hitting every track marker on their way round! lol. (and have cooking hot motors)

Also, another rule of thumb is to have the driveshafts level when the car is sat on the bench.

Thanks Guys, I know it seems like I have a million questions at the moment going off on a thousand tangents all at once so really appreciate you taking the time to answer them. I have about a million more questions to ask but I will try to keep it to a sensible number each day... :thumbsup:

No worries, keep 'em coming! ;)

As much as it pains me to recommend a car other that Schumacher (have driven them since I was 15!) Roger does make a good argument for the Kyosho in your case (and.......they........are.........good........... ............cars.........) that took some saying!! lol

:lol: To be honest its a tough call for me. I was swaying towards the Schumacher but Rogers point of shaft drives being lower maintenance than belt drives is obviously quite a big factor when you are less experienced like I am. Although I raced when I was younger, I was too young to fully comprehend set ups and much in the way of maintenance so that aspect is almost completely new to me....

If the Schumacher was shaft driven I think that I would have fallen down in favour of the SX3.

Feel free to ask for advice when you have the car ... before you get the car please search for my posts on diff shiming and njc11's (Nick 'the diff-man' Caro) posts on building diffs and slipper setting. Follow those and you will have a near bullet proof drive line that is super smooth :)

Will do Roger, thanks again. Im trying to keep all my questions to this one thread so I can refer back to it to extract information at a later date. When I get the car I will make sure to dig out the posts you mention. :thumbsup:

I've been quiet for a few days now to give you all a rest from my questions :p ....but I have a couple for you now.....?

Firstly, as someone who built my first kit when assembling my RB5 recently I have no clue if I have the slipper set correctly. How can I tell? The car goes well enough, so Im fairly confident that its not horrifically wrong but how do I know if it is set 'right'?

Secondly, regarding the ongoing saga of what 4wd.... I was settled on the FS2. It was a case of when rather than if. Tonight though I have seen that the DEX410 is now available at £299. This has always been a car that I considered a little too pricey so overlooked it but am now wondering if I shoud reconsider?

That said, the general consensus on here seems to be that they are set up heavily dependant, so as a novice to the technical element of this game (set ups and maintenance etc) would I be better off sticking to the FS2 or taking the plunge with a DEX410?

Thanks guys.....:thumbsup::thumbsup:

All I will say is that I know of a few people who had trouble getting to grips with the Durango (it's a very aggressive car to drive) and move to the FS/FS2 ... all have stayed with the Kyosho.

I only know of one person to go from the Lazer to a Durango and he works for Durango now ....

Other than that I'll leave it up to you

Thanks Roger, you kind of confirmed what I was already thinking... I dont think the Durango is the right car for me at this stage of my career. I need simple to set up and maintain, and I dont think that is the Durango.

Was anyone at Moto Arena last night for the racing? If so, what number of laps were people putting in during a 5 minute race?

I went down there this morning and drove the track. I loved it, I was getting worn out early on running up and down the steps from the rostrum doing my own marshalling but was stringing together some good sequences of laps by the end. I doubt whether I was at race pace but I was putting together 10+ laps on a regular basis without ending on my roof or beaching it on the hoses so I was pretty pleased with that.

I would be interested to know how many laps others were completing so I know just how slow I was going... :p

I think 15 laps was the max over a 5 minute race in qualifying at Moto Arena last night, not sure if someone managed to squeeze in a 16 lapper though.

Thanks Gonky. Still a bit of work to be done on my 11 laps then.....:lol:

Sounds like you were doing ok considering the self-marshalling :thumbsup:

Putting in clean laps is half the battle at Moto Arena ;)

Dan, the 11 laps was done with a clean(ish) run where no marshalling was required. At the end of the practice session I was keen to string some decent laps together so whilst I wanted to go quickish, I concentrated on keeping it on 4 wheels. I still clipped the odd kerb, but no flip, rolls or getting beached so there was definate improvement in the session. I managed 3 consecutive runs, each with 10 or more laps where I didnt need to marshall so I was quite pleased with that. My pace sounds like it was about 4 laps down which is obviously a lot but for my first ever time with a car on a track since my Madcap days about 15 years ago I was Reasonably satisfied. I am going to have to get down there on a few tuesday nights now and just keep trying to improve....

If your going to MotoArena I think there are quite a few Kyosho runners that are regular there.

Has anyone ever bought a kit to assemble and found there to be any shortages in the box? I bought a B44.1 yesterday (I didnt see it coming either, it was FS2 all the way but had a last minute change of heart!?) and the first assembly is of the front and rear diff / gearbox.

When counting out the thrust balls the pack only contained 11 instead of 12. :( Has something like this happened to anyone else before? I know accidents can happen, but this has been a big pain for me. I started the build last night and the last thing I wanted was to have to stop due to a shortage of parts in the packet!! I just hope all the other quantities are correct otherwise I wont be happy......

I have ordered a pack of 6 replacements from MK-Racing so hopefully they will arrive asap so I can continue and get the rear gearbox completed.

If anyone from MK is on here and sees this, please please please send them as I'm dying to get it built! :thumbsup:

This (quite big) problem aside, first impressions of the build are good. I much prefer the way everything is bagged together for each stage of the build, as whilst it wasnt a big issue I wasnt keen on the way for the RB5 I had to keep looking for the right parts on the plastic components 'tree'.

My only other gripe, which is probably my fault is not having the right tools. I have a complete set of metric hex drivers from building the RB5 but found out straight away that the B44.1 is imperial. When it told me I needed a 3/8" driver to screw together the front gearbox my heart sank. None of my metric equivalents are even close enough to make do.... :cry:

I have also ordered a set of imperial drivers from MK, although curiously not one set (even the AE branded set) listed a 3/8" hex driver. They all though list a 0.050. Why do they list an imperial driver in a metric size? So I am hoping that there is a driver in there that will suffice as I flicked through the instructions and saw that 3/8" keeps popping up regularly!? If not then..... :cry::cry:

Mk are usually really fast sending stuff out so expect it soon :)
I would order a bag of diff shims as well as you don't get enough in the kit, part number as3911, it says to put 4 one side & 3 the other but you will probably need 6 & 4/5, put more on the short outdrive than the other side, this should give you a nice mesh on the gears
Enjoy the build :)

Thats good to know! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the advice on the shims as well, I will get some ordered tonight.

When building the front diff and tightening it down I wasnt 100% certain how much to tighten it. IF I understood the diagram correctly it told me to fully tighten the screw, and then unscrew it by 1/8th a turn to get the correct kit setting. Does this sound about right? :confused:

When your tightening it up just do it bit by bit, don't do it up completely or you could flatten the diff balls a bit, as it starts to feel tight hold both outdrives( i usually stick 1 side in a vice) & stick a allen key through the other side, then try & turn the centre pulley, if you can turn it it's to loose, just tighten a little at a time till you cant turn it, then your diff is set sweet, check it's still tight after your first run, when the car is assembled i think the diff should spin for no more than 1 second then stop, works nice for my car :)
Also loads of black grease on the thrust balls so they stay in place when you put them in the outdrive
Hope that makes sense
Gainsy

Forgot to say the idea of the shims is to stop the diff moving sideways, just add enough so it sits nice but still spins freely

Yeah that makes sense, thanks mate. I just hope I havent over tightened the front already then. I didnt burst a blood vessel on it or anything but because I thought it was telling me to fully tighten and then unscrew by 1/8 turn I did tighten it by hand until the resistance meant I would have had to adjust my grip to turn it anymore. I then released it by 1/8 as that was my interpretation of the instructions....!?

I think it's just the carbide balls that flatten, as long as the diff feels smooth but not loose you will be fine :)
Don't forget the threadlock on the alloy motor mounts as well, there is also a thread in the associated section about the steering assembly locking up if not put together exactly right, didn't have a problem myself as got mine second hand but worth a look before you get to it
Any more probs just pm me mate & enjoy building it :)

Thanks Gainsy, I appreciate the advice. If I need any more I will give you a shout! :thumbsup: