IF YOU LOOK THROUGH YOUR EMAILS 12 MONTHS AGO BEFORE JOINING THE CLUB I ASKED IF YOU WOULD BE RUNNING MARDAVES AND YOU REPLIED NO THEN WHEN I JOINED THE CLUB LOOKING FOR A CHEAP CLASS YOU INTRODUCED 1/18TH FTX OR ATOM WHICH I BOUGHT BUT YOU NEVER SET THE RULES SO PEOPLE BOUGHT BRUSHLESS SYSTEMS WIDER CHASSIS THEN LONGER CHASSIS THEN THEN THEN AND YOUR WORDS SCOTT WERE ILL SEE WOT EVERYONE IS RUNNING SO AFTER SPENDING £500 PLUS AND EVERYONE GETTING BORED WITH 1/18TH YOUR NOW DECIDING MARDAVE WELL I MUST SAY IM WELL UP FOR THAT AS I THINK I WAS 12 MONTHS AGO THE CLASS'S CAN ALTERNATE AS TIME GOES BY THROUGH CHANGING BODY TYPES AT AROUND A FIVER BUT ........ MAKE SURE YOU SET RULES AND KEEP TO THEM.
FOR INSTANCE LAST FRI A FINAL YOU TOOK ME OUT IN THE FIRST FEW LAPS AND THREW ME OVER THE BARRIER DIDNT STOP WAIT APPOLOGIZE OR ANY THING SO NEXT QUESTION IF WE/YOU DO MAKE NEW RULES WILL WE STICKING TO THEM :eh?: AS FOR MOTOR CHANGE THATS MORE MONEY ON THE 1/10THS ALONG WITH NEW TYRES FOR THE CARPET IF YOUR NOT CAREFULL YOU WILL KILL THE HOBBY HOPE YOU CAN APPRECIATE MY VIEWS AND CORRECT MY SPELLING MISTAKES LOL

Craig

As mentioned in my PM to you, running a club can be a thankless task at the best of times and as Chairman the buck does stop with me so I accept we may have done somethings wrong. It would have been great to run all types of classes from day one when we start just over a year ago now.

At that time we took the decision to start the club with TCs only. The committee then chose to introduce the micros, albeit without any firm rules, and I think that was a mistake but that's what the club decided.

Thankfully we are being a little more careful now about a new 'cheap & fun class' and I'm really happy that we have lots of discussions going on here and at the club on Fridays.

Eventually once we have all the information in front of us, the clubs committee will make a decision. I'm with you on some of the comments you made last Friday about the rules if we introduce this class, so lets get them right now before we fall into the same problem we have with the micros.

With regard to racing, I've noticed also that we seemed to have stopped talking on the rostrum, so we should all try and work together - yes the racing is close, very close at times and there will always be a bit of door rubbing - maybe I'm trying to drive too much like Matt Neal :blush: :(

Paul, I really appreciate the fact you're doing this during a Championship, your support and input into the club is very welcome :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

To be honest Craig, I'm certainly not shouting about the merits of a motor change. I'm very happy to stick with my 13.5, fine the rules do not stop others from going the 17.5 route if they want but I will stand firm against a view to change the rules of the Touring Cars.

So as far as I'm concerned, apart from the tyre change due to the new surface, everything else stands and I'm not looking to make changes on anything else...

I'm going to throw another curved ball into the melting pot...

What about the Mardave Sidecar?

http://mardaveonline.co.uk/img/Sidecar/DSCF2151.jpg

very diffuclt to setup and get working well - not ideal for a starter class - saw one at tamworth and whilst it looked good, it took the driver all day to get a reasonable setup
mardave minis and caterhams would get my vote :thumbsup:

I thought that would be the case Chris. I bet they look good outdoors on tarmac.

Mini's and Caterhams look the best bet then...

MARDAVE V12 GET MY FULL VOTE WITH THE CLASS'S CHANGE FROM WEEK TO WEEK ONCE THERE IS ENOUGH INTEREST IE DIFFERENT BODY TYPES 1960'S THEN STOCK RODS ETC WOULD LOVE TO TRY THE RELIANT ROBINS AS FOR BATTERYS THERE ARE A FEW OF US POTENTIALY MOVING FROM 1/18TH TO MARDAVE SO HOW ABOUT USING THE 1/18TH LIPO PACKS
MARDAVE'S THE SOONER THE BETTER THERE GREAT CAN I RUN THE ORIGINAL MARDAVE MINI'S IVE GOT FOUR OF THEM ON THE SHELF

WOT ABOUT THE MARDAVE LEGENDS THEN THE CARAVANS THE LIST GOES ON AND ON :thumbsup:

The point about 1:18th LiPo's is the very reason I'm keen to be able to use them as many of us already have packs that would fit into a mini chassis and therefore reduces initial outlay...

As for different bodyshells - maybe we just leave that aspect open to all Mardave bodyshells and let people choose their own, having a mix of bodyshells will probably look great too - as well as the odd caterham mixing it up.

The only problem with using lipos in a nimh setup generally is the lack of weight, not sure how the mardave will handle with less weight ?
I can feel another test coming on, lol - mardave + 1/18th lipo, where's paul when you need him :p

I would like to repeat what I said earlier in the thread;

"I think (if we do go mardave) we should run with the 4-cell nimh's for the following reasons;

The 4.8v are more than fast enough
Cheaper for new starters
Safer to store and charge than lipo
Just need a basic charger - ideal for new starters"

I also think the 7.4v micro packs will be too quick for a "budget/ new driver class", especially new starters. Another risk is that unless we use an ESC with low voltage protection, big risk of the lipo packs failing.

In summary, I think that using the micro lipo's will make it more expensive for new starters (direct and indirect costs) and will bring in raft of other side effects that will reduce scope for placing limits on ESC's etc which is at the core of making it a stock class.

Hope I am not being too negative - more than happy to run a micro pack on friday if someone can please supply (deans connector) - I will need to change the ESC that I currently have though.

Paul

lipo's
 

ILL BRING SOME LIPO'S DOWN FOR YA TO RUN CAN I BRING A MARDAVE MINI AS FOR BATT CUT OFF SIMPLES JUST AT A BATT ALARM FOR £3 DETECTS WHEN YOU NEED TO STOP AND CHARGE SIMPLES, 4 CELLS MAY SOON GET BORING DUE TO SPEED BUT AFTER ALL YOUR LOOKING FOR A CHEAP STARTER CLASS BUT THEN AGAIN IF YOUR STARTING FROM NEW WHY WAIST MONEY ON NIMH AND CHARGER WHEN YOU COULD BUT A 1/18TH LIPO FOR £16 AND PROB A SLOW CHARGER FOR A FIVER
HARD ONE GUYS WITH YOU WOT EVER YOU DECIDE MIGHT NOT DO AS YOU SAY BUT IM WITH YA LOL

If there is an issue of weight Chris, we could always increase the minimum weight for those who wish to run LiPo to even out with those runnin cells. It could be tat we would need to run them both for a few meetings on different tracks before we can finalise a weight.

I'm happy to run heavier with LiPo's if it evens out the racing.

Talking of weight, how simple do you think it could be to have success ballast? The top 2 or 3 from each week have to run with Xg of weight the following time they race like they used to do in BTCC

Paul,

No problem with cells for beginners, but those of us with LiPo's should not be put off from converting from Mircos to Mardaves. Have a think about my weight option for LiPo users - that may help solve your concerns that LiPo Mardaves would be faster.

As Chris and Craig say, it looks like some testing is in order :thumbsup:

I dont have much experience with mini or mardaves but they do look good, especially the caterhams. I do have some experience running with 4 cell batteries though, about 4 years ago I used to run one of these:

http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/new...0Touring%20Car

Running it with 4 cell nimh and a 4.5 novak brushless. While it wasnt the fastest thing out there it was definitely one of the most fun forms of racing. Its a shame it didnt stay around :(

Both the minis and the mardaves look like a great little form of racing! So even though I wont be running one they do get my vote! If anyone is interested I found this review of a mardave caterham:

http://www.mardavespares.com/tic2/p4...e_RRCJAN08.pdf

Paul, from the review I have a few questions. Is your mardave chassis plate countersunk underneath? As the review recommends doing it if you are not running in the BRCA championships. Also have you tried "water dipping" or spraying WD40 on your motor for improved performance?

I still have one of my Xray 1/12th touring cars if anyone is interested in seeing it, I will bring it along one friday :thumbsup: (not that I am saying we should allow them to run, its just nice to old past cars :cry:)

Would be intresting to do some testing with LiPo and 4 cell.

I think you would have to add a huge amount of weight though if both where to be used together to even it out. If you think about it, 4 cell is 4.8V and using a LiPo is 7.4V, thats means the LiPo has over 50% more volts than the 4 cells as well as being lighter to start with

Also I dont think the motors that come with the Mardave kits are the longest lasting things in the world, running them on higher volts means higher rpm, which means they wont last as long. Going through one of those a month will soon add up over the year...

Have been looking at the LiFe batteries, these run at 6.6 volts, from what I have read they dont 'blow up' like LiPos and you dont need to worry too much about running them low. There is some small ones about that you can use as recieiver packs in nitro cars, I dont know if these would have enough in them though to last a race

I like the idea of adding weight to the leader in the final, we could run a reverse grid in the final, would be good fun if we had a large final :woot:

Chassis is not counter sunk but would probably be a good idea. "water dipping"?? - you can explain to me on friday! :).
Paul

I also read somewhere about water dipping -WTF!!!! We are discussing the safety merits or LiPo and now we talk about water and electrics :woot: OMG!! I have no idea how it works... :(

Reverse grids wouldn't work Russ. You can imagine what will happen, a go slow approach in the heats to secure pole in final and then run away with a win...

I think the success ballast idea is workable and might be worth discussing further though...

Russ, i run LiFe in my 6T, when fully charged its 7.2v, your correct, there is not the same problem as with LiPo and the running low or catching on fire.

Paul, i think Jon is talking about running the motor in whilst its in a bowl of water,its meant to make them run better i think :confused:.


If we go down the route of the Mardave's, will we still be running micro's,there are a few that run now and some people may not want to spend more on another class.

I think it would be a good idea to have pole on this, either at the club or a mail shot to the members to decide,they could reply with a simple yes/no.

It was not our intention to stop the micros. The idea was to introduce this as an additional class but aimed at a low cost, high fun class of racing.

Thankfully we are all discussing the merits and potential rules here which is great as we'd like to have rules in place before start going off and spending any money.

It's where we went wrong with the micros, but that's not to say we are dropping micros.

At the end of the day, we shall see what happens if or when we start running Mardaves. At the end of the day it is our members that dictate what we race...

Yeah you are right Ross. From what I've read it a trick used on sealed silver can motors. You basically submerge the motor in water (maybe with some motor spray mixed in) and then run in via a 3v power supply. It is meant to break in the brushes and the bushing and give greater performance. But apparently also just spraying a bit of WD40 on the comm works really well too. This just brings back memories of brushed 27T motors and all the tricks you could do with them :lol:

Success ballast? It a good idea if we could get it to work :) I think one of the problems would be is that everyone is running different weights for their cars anyway. I mean you would have to ask Andy but last time I spoke to him there was a good range of car weights. Also the placement of the weight changes things too. It could work in the Mardave/Mini class though due to them having a simpler construction and layout.

At one of my old clubs we used a different qualifying format which we could try to shake things up a bit. Basically the practise was timed (like Scott has set up on the screen atm) and then everyones fastest lap decided the order of the grid, we then had 3 x 5 min finals per race night. This was done across 7 nights so there was 21 rounds with only so many counting. Just a suggestion :)

Wouldn’t this would still happen if you used ballast? People would hold back knowing they don’t want the extra weight in a final? Or are we saying that the winner from the week before would have to carry the ballast for the whole of the next meeting?

We could award extra points to qualifying positions to stop people holding back if ballast or reversed guide was used. I.e. the fastest person get 10 extra points, second 9 and so on. Or is this what we do already- I cant remember :confused:

I don't think success ballast is practical. It makes the scrutineers job way too hard to be worth it for a friendly club night. Reverse grid is not as bad an idea as long as you can score some point from qualifying too (maybe not as many as the final but something that makes it worth going for a higher position)

Having said all that, I don’t think it’s such a big problem. Are people not getting good enough racing that you feel that such things are necessary in order to keep the racing close and/or interesting? In competition there will naturally be those who excel more than others and that’s something we have to accept.

Back to the Mardave thing, I think 4 cell Ni-mh or 1S Lipo should be the way to go as it’s the standard across the rest of the country and it works well for them. The whole point of what we started discussing is that it’s cheap, fun and close racing, lets keep it basic and simple and you can’t fail. The Micro lipo deliver high voltage but have small capacity. That makes it more likely that you could run them to a lower voltage and damage them with an ESC that doesn’t have a cut out. Life cells were mentioned and it may well become the future but it isn’t yet I don’t think and won’t be for a few years yet.

Will 1S lipo be too slow with only 3.7V nominal and 4.2 when charged? Maybe... But isn’t that somewhat the point of this class? Even the 4 Cell cars go at a good speed and so for a small track like Bromham, you may find that 1S Lipo works really well. It can stay consistent for everyone (we all know little tricks which can boost the voltage of Ni-mh packs to gain more punch at the beginning of a race) and should be easy to maintain as most are now comfortable with Lipo use. As Russ says, a 4cell Ni-Mh packs can be had for about £15 each with 1S Lipo packs not costing a lot more (unless you are trying to buy crazy powerful ones) and so it won’t be a big issue for cost.

For those who go down the Mardave route and have a 1S Lipo setup, you could always look to introduce 12th scale racing for the future as it would be similar in concept and layout whilst still using 1S Lipo/4 Cell Ni-Mh.

We should make sure all cars have a tow hitch fitted!

Top runners will have to have a caravan attached :p

I think you are right Maz, probably best to get a new class set up in the first instance and not overcomplicate it. It will have it's own natural hurdles to jump over first. Then if in time we think it needs spicing up we can look ballast and reverse grids. Depending on how successful it is, we may want to have a stock class with straight forward rules (focussing the new comers/ kids) and a 'pro' class or summut that is more geared towards the touring car drivers who want to run a second class (The Caterham Cup - Caterhams with lipo's and brushless motors, yes Scott, Craig and Chris, I can read your minds ;))...

I must say I think this in depth consultation on the forum is really healthy, hopefully it will transfer to some quality racing.

All of these ideas that are supposedly designed to "make the racing closer" are simply a way of making the quick guys slower.

Unfortunately the best drivers will always win, I don't see the point in reversing the grid, ballasting up the pole man etc, just do your best in qualifying and race from where you end up, then see if you can beat the best driver. What's the point in TQing the meeting only to be put at the back of the grid and beaten by slower people taking you out?

The same goes for limiting the power, not using lipo's or brushless etc. As soon as you try to make a "stock" or governed class you will get people who are trying to get an edge .......... or cheat, if put bluntly.

In the case of the Tamiya Mini there's only so much you can do to the car in the way of performance before it becomes undriveable so why not let people put in whatever speedo, servo and cells they want but keep the crap motor that comes with the kit? If someone is running dogbones or UJ's I don't consider that as being unfair, it's just slightly easier to drive, the same goes for the ball diff ........... a novice with none of this fitted or all of this fitted is going to be at the same level regardless. The best driver on the night may probably have all the upgrades but it's not making him win, it's his driving that's doing that.

People soon get bored with "stock" classes and before long you will have a host of people who want to start a "pro" class. If this happens you'll have touring cars, micro's, Mardave's, Stock/Pro Mini's .......... good luck in fitting that all into a Friday evening Scott :confused:

Mardave's are the cheapest option but there's no reason why you shouldn't let people use lipos as they are no more expensive than NiMhs as you only need one pack and balance chargers cost less than £20 from Hong Kong. You can buy a charger, Lipo and the totally unnecessary lipo sack for less than £40 delivered to your door. NiMhs will cost around a fiver each (you'll need more than one) and they'll need to be discharged properly and stored if you are going to keep them for any period of time. Far more NiMhs have exploded over the years and have caused more injuries etc than Lipos ever will.

Club racing was transformed for the average racer with lipo's/brushless etc, why go backwards? :confused:

Paul,

I really have no interest in brushless for this class. I'm fully behind the basic tin can motor and nothing else. As Maz rightly says, it will be more than enough fun with those motors on our tracks at the hall.

I'm asking that we consider the options of LiPo simply because I and others believe they are more user friendly than conventional cells. I do not want to live in a nanny state, and I agree with what Alec has said about LiPo's, the hysteria about LiPo's is simply getting out of hand, not just at our club but in the hobby of rc cars. They've been used in aero models for a long time now and LiPo's are also appearing in other electrical items that get charged on a regular basis.

As I've said before, anything can be dangerous if used incorrectly but let's not stir up what is basically a false claim that LiPo's are dangerous. If they were as bad as some would have you believe they would never be sold to the general public. As for the World Championships, you say yourself the cause was incorrect use, not the actual stability or not of the battery in question.

Fair enough, I always watch over my young son when he connects, charges and disconnects the LiPo, that to me is being sensible. As his father, if I thought they were dangerous I wouldn't let him anywhere near them.

Someone could fall off the stage and break an arm or leg :cry:

Don't get me wrong Paul, I appreciate your concerns and understand you want to ensure that we have a safe environment to enjoy the sport, but I think we need to put the danger into context. Millions of LiPo's are sold worldwide and I'm not aware of any major injury or death to a human from them. There are other items in our tool boxes that have caused far worst injuries...

If the BRCA make it mandatory that a club affiliated with them must use 'Nanny Bags' then it will be a very sad day for the hobby :thumbdown:

Anyway, off my soap box now and back to the Mardave discussion :thumbsup:

I think playing with the points system is both limited by the computer software we run, but also will become very confusing - look what happened the last time we tried to be clever with the scoring :woot:

The scoring system works perfectly well at the moment - we qualify for a final and then score just in that single final, It's simple, easy to follow for all club members and has worked well for us now all year. If you have a poor final then that's just tough luck!

My thoughts on the success ballast was for it to be fitted to the winning car, or maybe the top 3 throughout their next meeting. If a driver wins one week but misses the next week, he/she will still have to have the weight added the next time they race. Maybe the club should have a set of equal sized weights that we hand out - how we fix to the chassis, well we can think about that later...

I agree Alec that often the best drivers still come to the top, but there is no harm in us trying it to see how it works out.

Regarding countersunk screws and and chassis - is that something you could offer to customers Russell? I'd be happy to assist anyone who would need the kit chassis' screw holes to be countersunk but of course we'd need a good supply of countersunk screws Russell :)

Can I suggest an idea about the success ballast? If we do decide to run Mardaves and we can all come to agreement on rules, that we look to run a trial championship during the Autumn Championships with no trohpies awarded. That way, there is no pressre on drivers to push too hard and we can see if the ballast idea works or not, without effecting the outcome of a drivers position regarding points.

I have to disagree with you Alec.

At a club I ran a long time ago we used to run the original Mardave Mini's, all stock, nothing fancy and we raced like that for years. No one ever got bored because it was great fun. That's the thing, this is not about out and out performance (that's why we have TCs) it's simply about having fun.

I want to encourage the fun aspect for this class if we as a club introduce them.

This is a nice little ESC we could use in the Mardaves and as it's only running the tin can motor it'll never be overloaded :thumbsup:

http://www.apexmodels.com/gbu0-prodshow/340.html

Cheap for under £30

Is this 4 cell pack suitable with the above speedo?

http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFun...n&ItemID=33628

At that kind of price then 4 cell packs would be acceptable to me...

I am sure that there are many ESC's out there that are sub £30, even sub £20 that are perfectly suitable. Perhaps we should look at the one that is an option with the mardave kits which will probably be most cost effective. The mtroniks one I was running tonight was about £17 from ebay.

Scott, I think that battery pack is for operating radio gear only, it has quite a low capacity. Try these bad boys: http://www.futureworldmodels.com/aca...fo_101935.html

This is what I was using and seemed to have no issues with 2 rounds of racing.

Incidently, the test on the micro lipo packs was not very conclusive - they were quicker... I still think too quick and the motor got quite hot. What did you think Craig?

I am going to do a bit of a costing exercise for next week looking at a typical set up, and what potential there is for it to get out of hand. I think there is ony so much you can spend on them, but would be useful to have it written down on a piece of paper. This should hopefully fuel a discussion on the way forward.

Also, when I bring the mardave next week, think it would be good for more people to try it, so anyone who is interested can take turns each round and see what you think.

Paul

Those Losi batteries are for there micro range of cars, 1/36th scale. There about the size of a 50p coin :lol:

Paul have you had a look at the rules for the V12 series on the Mardave site? http://mardaveonline.co.uk/2010Circu...sBRCARules.pdf
I think they would work for us with a small tweak (depending on what we do regarding batteries)

The main points:
Any brushed speedo with reverse with a RRP under £69.00
Must use the Mardave G2 brushed motor
Any 4.8 NiCad or Nimah cells

Lipo's
 

Hi guys my mini i chucked together last night hadn't been used for twenty years and the tyres were knackered £20 speedo off rus with a £4 lipo alarm no diff with a bit of additive it was great fun so the v12's im well up for batterys still a problem the lipo alarm started flashing in the second round to say it was getting low so doubt really it would run 2 heats (shame) and thinking about it if every other club is running for cells why cant we. I don't think 1 cell lipo's would be any good, but mr mardave is now selling a brushless package so is this the future. conclusion don't know lol firstly we all want to use russ assuming he becomes reliable, only messing russ so can you price a club package for us kit and deal secondly can paul run his without the modified ball diff you cheat see if its driveable mine was and being a mini quite a bit shorter thirdly lets ring some succesfull clubs and find out there opinions and options and fourthly lets get racing and sell all those expensive touring cars.:thumbsup::thumbsup::p ps i no i can't spell :(

Interesting about the LiPo, I think to be honest that the 4 cell route seems to be the way forward and talking to various people on Friday I think we are now coming ever closer to a set of rules to race to, so watch this space... :thumbsup:

tyres
 

One point to add i as well as some others feel one type of controlled tyre is enough less expense and less options meaning everyone running the same unlike the three or four options now used on the touring cars carpet setup lets please keep it simple but ofcourse they will need glueing and truing which costs money kamtec want around £7 per wheel and tyre trued and glued

I would be happy to accept this and in fact I'd like to see us move to a single control tyre for Touring Cars in 2011. Gives everyone currently racing enough time to use what they already have before getting a new set. That way from 2011 all cars are running on the same tyre which removes the worry of having to have lots of different tyres. Most other clubs use 1 type...

Any news on whats happening kits/battery wise ?

We will have some news on exactly what we are going to do in a couple of weeks at the very latest - watch this space...