That ansmann comment is a bit low imo, ansmann/team c have looked at the best parts of the current cars and put them all together in one, no parts are like for like, you buy a madrat and see how many parts properly fit other cars;)

Ansman is called TQ racing in the USA, and they have a "new" 1/8th scale coming out..

and let me tell you it is the EXACT Copy of the GS Racing CLX.

http://www.neobuggy.net/modules/news...p?storyid=7892

it doesnt get any worse then that

TQ is NOT "Ansmann". They are a US company that re-brands another companies product that isnt currently distributed in the US and imports them into the US under the known TQ name.

Uh...?

I can never work out why people defend the likes of Ansmann. The parts may not be properly interchangeable but it's pretty clear where they took the lion share of the design from. Except for that front top plate thingy, that's very RB5-ish.
(made a comment here that was wrong wrong wrong wrong, my bad)

Kind of a catch 22 you say u don't stand up for cloners.. but you have to admit they just combined all three cars together in that kit. So its ok to clone everybody at once but. Not just one car at a time?

I understand you there are only so many ways to build a rear motored 2wd buggy but don't blind yourself just because the car is a step above the reg clone crap.

I won't bag on ansmann but I will say they are innovating the hobby.. they definately are ruffling any of the big 3's feathers..

Ok, I'm having trouble understanding why labelling a spade as a spade is low or unfair?

The Ansmann Madrat is a goddamn clone, so is their 4wd jobby. Perhaps not an exact copy and maybe they are better quality than all the other clones, but that doesn't remove the fact that they copies.

I also mentioned that manufacturers copy from others, design features come out, they get taken up by rival manufacturers. No problem there.
But to clone someone elses design almost entirely?

Anyhoo, I'm going to leave it at that. This forum is a very pleasant troll/argument free place and I should do my bit to keep it that way.

er its not a clone granted it was designed very much like the losi and rb5 but its not a a clone

There is a big difference between a 'best features of other cars' design and a true clone - and its all down to product development. Such a car still needs testing because each and every part is unique to it (albeit very similar to somebody elses) and there is no guarantee the whole lot will work together. Perfect example is the X-Factory X5 which is technically a XXX-4 drivetrain with XX-4 suspension (so by your definition a 'clone') but clearly required a lot of work to get right.
In contrast if I made a straight copy (down to the screw holes) of say the new Cougar, I don't need to do any testing at all. Schumacher have done all that for me and since my design is identical to theirs its going to work pretty much the same.
Put another way, the first type is a shortcut, the second outright cheating.......

As it's been said, people will use other peoples ideas. They see something working on another car, and try to implement it on their own. That's evolution.

Completely copying on the other hand, is a totally different matter.

:D When I say 'Game Over' I'm not saying the end of the world as we know it, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. BUT, let's be clear here - Durango, Schumacher etc do all the hard work up front. Designing and innovating sophisticated RC cars is a time consuming, and therefore expensive, business paid for by the return on sales. If the Chinese clone that design and totally undercut your market then you run the risk of being forced out of business. Seeing as the Chinese are not capable / interested in designing innovative and desirable RC cars then ultimately our 'game' is over, or certainly a lot less healthy.

Chances are the Durango copy is made from parts off the same production line. It's posible the quality is every bit as good as the orginal. The Chinese are plenty clever enough to get it right.

There's a big difference between a Chinese designed, developed & manufactured kit and a straight forward clone rip-off. The former is fair sport. The latter is theft.

That and the post above were what i was getting at, im glad someone gets what i mean :woot: (not having a go btw)

my old design teacher once said to me "a Designer is an improver"

I think this statement is quite true, its very rare for someone to come up with a 'new' object for cars to roll on (a wheel as its most often known) but designers come up with new ways of shaping the internals of the wheel, wheel fixing, off-set, width and so on. this is design. (and often involved prototypes and testing to optimise this design)

getting a pair of calipers around a current wheel and reproducing it 100% like for like isn't really design is it.

I mean they could at least put some effort in and do an embossed logo or something like that surely... :eh?:

before you beat me up, I'm using a wheel as an example here, I know people like to have a universal standard of fitment and we are restricted by tire dimensions too, but you get my idea.

to be fair the whole ansmann thing is rubbish they dont make the car team C do also the car is different to anything out there since it has a losi like rear end and a rb5 like front it is different though there is not one single part other thank things like screws and diff balls that can be swapped onto any other car and the car peforms different to the losi the RB5 and any other 2wd cars out there in the end with a rear motored 2wd how many ways can it be built there really is always going to be one way that is "best" look at F1 by then end of the season nearly the whole field will be running nearly the same car in racing its peformance that counts not looks or who has coppied who if this durango clone comes out and seems to be made well i will buy one i own 3 Trex clones as mentioned above and i bet some of you are typing on desktop pc ohh your all using IBM clones :thumbsup: see in the end the world is a hard place and things will be coppied especialy some of the best designs in the world its life get over it

all this reminds me of this schumacher (?) clone

http://www.r2hobbies.com/eng/proddet...od=rcve3301002

Sure fella, but if this practice of cloning prevents the original designers to stay in the business of conjuring up nice car designs for us all to own then that's a bit poo isn't it? The Chinese aren't designing jack sh*t.

The IBM is a bad analogy for a whole bunch of reasons.

Actually its a perfect analogy for a simple reason - it shifted the burden of development to the aftermarket.
RC used to be like that once, and may well be again. Once upon a time we all ran the 1 or 2 cars available, but you could buy say improved wishbones from 100's of different people.
If everyone drives competant Chinese Durango clones and all big innovations are copied and cloned days after appearing to that extent its not worth doing, people might well stop designing whole cars. But they could to a roaring trade in improved shock towers, or stronger wishbones etc.
This already happens in 1/5th. Some HPI Baja clones are as good as the real deal, but this has only boosted the sales of aftermarket parts for Baja's. The cloners are squeezing HPI, but are helping the small parts industry.
Innovation lives on, just from a new source. Remember we are racers, we always want a better car than the other guy. Where that edge comes from (stock or aftermarket) is not important.

Steve Jobs once said "Good designers copy, great designers steal" or something to that effect.

Who wants a world where people stop designing whole cars? Small parts industry won't be sponsoing events / race series etc, such as the current manufacturers do. They won't have the clout to develop and evolve the product. The RC world be a lot worse off in this scenario.

I noticed a comment saying that the clone will be bought by people who wouldn't have been able to afford to buy a real Durango, so it doesn't really affect the situation.

True, but by buying a clone, instead of something legitimate they COULD afford (HPI Cyber 10b, Tamiya DB01 etc), they are hurting even more companies.

Its unethical, and stinks on so many levels.

thats what i was on about it even has the same name

Really? Cos thats how it works in full size cars. People that make parts for modified cars sponsor events for them, not the cars manufacturers. Works that way for a lot of things that are available in a capable but dull stock form, but with a range of custom parts.

RC cars weren't originally even designed for racing. People started having competitions and since their cars weren't suitable they started making custom parts to fix the problem. After making one, others would ask, and they'd make more, and next you know they are aftermarket suppliers.
Couldn't happen now? Oh it can - like the many people who can supply you with brass B4 bulkheads etc - an innovation entirely created aftermarket.

Basically what I'm saying is it wouldn't harm the hobby, though it might hurt the current industry and will radically alter the way things work.

BTW I'd like to point out that the original Durango was an aftermarket conversion of a TC3! Indeed, its been shed engineered for a decade before it was finally launched. Who says the little guy can't innovate?

You cannot draw a true parallel between the real car scene and the RC car world. There's that much more money in the real car scene that a lot of the aftermarket tuners are quite big businesses in their own right. I'm sorry, but Trishbits and Nortech etc are not going to have the same clout as Schumacher, AE, Losi etc when it comes to promoting and sponsoring our hobby.

The current situation is healthy. It's great that the aftermarket RC guys are doing their thing. But if we lost our manufacturers then the aftermarket guys would suffer too, because it's our manufacturers who have enough resources to innovate new models etc and keep the game alive. And what about supporting our own talent and skills? Does that not come into the equation?

At the end of the day, I don't suppose that enough people will abandon the Original's in favour of the Clones. But if they did, it would be harmful to our hobby - that's not in doubt.

We've all benefited materialistically from the Chinese. My computer, your computer, our mobiles, TV's, clothes etc etc. This stuff has never been so cheap. But there's no such thing as a free lunch as the old saying goes.

Got that right...conversion...not copy. They know copying is illegal.

I think you got it right with 'borrowed'. They obviously hadn't got a fully designed front end when the car ran at Petit, so probably just draughted a B4 ront to compete at the event.

I think it now has a complete front end from what I've seen in other pics now.:)

Ahhhh wouldn't happen to have a link to those pics would you?

I am really liking the dex210.

And most of the text I wrote!

For us there is simply nothing you can do, you just hope that people see sense. If customers are looking to buy a competition TC they are not going to spend £150, more like £300+

But rest assured its VERY frustrating!!

There you go lads, straight from the horses mouth. Chris did all the hardwork, someone else stole it.

Found this:
http://www.rc-news.de/wp-content/upl...buggy_2010.jpg

Familiar?!

That's the picture that kicked this thread off Mes!

If you see one, stamp on it :o:woot:

It's also not just a photo-shopped 410 or 410R pic as the shocks are not TD like ;)

G

has no boots on shocks or outdrives either.

neo now has more photos of the copy (cannot do links lol) shocking copy

Looks like an exact copy to me.

http://www.neobuggy.net/modules/news...p?storyid=7939

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy1.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy2.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy3.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy4.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy5.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy6.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy7.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy8.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy9.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy10.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy11.jpg

http://www.neobuggy.net/images/News/tdcopy12.jpg

Oh Dear oh dear, it doesnt look to bad that (apart from I bet the turnbuckles are like butter!!)

Nope, I've spotted differences.

But I will say it is totally shocking what they've done :thumbdown:

I ran my 410R at RHR yesterday, and enjoyed every single second of it! - just chucked that in, :lol:

G

Well, thanks to Durango and Neobuggy, if I wanted one, I now know where to go to get one...... how NOT to draw attention to it.... :woot:

what would annoy me the most would be that they have copied even the smallest non-important details (the shape of the face of the wheel as an example)

this is the equivilant of the 'bad boy' at school stealing your homework and copying it letter for letter, even the spelling mistakes.
(and sometimes handing it in before you so you get acused of copying them!! :woot: :mad: )

robocopy springs to mind here.

there is ABSOLUTELY no designers 'creation' here at all.

EDIT: actually, let my change my analagy from 'bad boy' to be 'retarded kid' at school (retarded as in actually thick and lazy, not actual retardation)

As said before, the bottom line is that Durango will make more on spares by getting more cars out there, so im sure they wont worry too much.

I think Durango are worried all right, far more than some people think.......