is it points or wins? all he needs is another 5 wins

It's not playing up, look at the results, all the three diffuser teams are ahead of the competition, then you have red bull with a car that is very very different to the others.

its not on wins this year mark they decided against it gonna wait till next year

Yeah if they were playing up they would at least try and get a few points on the board. Right now they are just gash

I hope Brawn 'n Button do the business... I've got 'em both in my Fantasy F1...

Count up those Fantasy F1 points and weep losers.... :thumbsup:

Acurate analysis has a double deck diffuser worth about 0.5-0.6 seconds per lap on the Brawn (because of the way they scoop air in under the nose) and 0.4-0.5 for Williams and Toyota.

You might see brawn pull out a bit more of a gap now because they don't have to pretend the diffuser is only a small advantage. I can tell you now none of the Non-diffuser cars were sandbagging to try and make the Brawn look faster than it really is.

By the sounds of it the 'double deck' bit isn't on the diffuser itself, but on the 'deformable structure'. There is a 150mm section in the middle of the diffuser that protects the car etc. in the event of a rear impact. The diffuser aparently had to match a straight line across the top edge, but the dformable structure is classed as bodywork, and this is where some designers have found a 'grey area' and taken advantage of this by creating a double diffuser that exceeds the specified dimensions.
So, technically they are 'legal' because the diffuser section does actually conform to the reg's.
I don't see as its going to take anything away from the racing, how can it? If the other cars close the gap on Brawn then thats a good thing surely?:thumbsup:

Ha, I actually have some cold hard cash on JB and Brawn ;)

G

But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:

I chatted with Mr. C about the Red Bull on Sunday night, but he might have been a bit too drunk to remember! :lol:

G

Did you take advantage of his drunkeness G and get load of confidential info out of him to sell to ferrari or something? :)

Its looking good in the wet conditions anyway!, they would have blown everyone away if the conditions had remained just 'wet' in malaysia.

Am I right is saying the teams are on a limited budget this year. If so then I assume they have already spent a fortune getting their aerodynamics right to what they thought was legal already. How much is it going to cost to develope a new diffuser and aerodynamic bodywork to suit and will be over budget in which case they cant do it.

RB will have to redesign the whole rear end to adapt such a diffuser. What has made their car the best of the non diffuser cars is preventing them from having that diffuser on their car. Basically they'll need a new gearbox, suspension etc... a whole new rear end, instead of just aerodynamics appendices. So they have a choice of either carrying on developping this car as it is and not use the diffuser, or scrap their rear end, go back to a more conventional one and be at the same level as the other teams...

There's no budget cap this year at all, but teams are trying to reduce their budget nonetheless.

Yes it is costly for the teams, for example yesterday there were some brand new just painted engine covers in the workshop, these will NEVER be used as they were for the old diffuser, which is just basically being scrapped. All in all, all the molds, parts and design time spent on the "old" parts has been a waste of time and money.

Seems various people misunderstood my point somehow. Of course they're not sandbagging, but it has been in their interest to say "the diffuser is worth a second a lap so we're really the best legal car!" to both the FIA and their internal management, than to admit their car is crap regardless! That's how I meant by overplay it!

yeah, no budget restrictions but i think teams are only allowed 8 days or so testing time on the track... doesn't stop the bigger teams throwing money at problems and having the simulators and wind tunnels on 24-7 though

Exactly, this is what I meant by saying they've overplayed the difference!

But the same would be true for brawn etc if the appeal had gone the other way?

good point. Someone at ferrari must be getting their arse kicked for not seeing the loophole

awww well u have to admit these 2 thing. 1, since ross brawn and jon todd have left ferrari have gone down hill and 2 its a bout time ferrari were chassing the rest of the field i personly think its quite funny

Lets not forget as Eddie Jordan said on the BBC, alot of credit should go to Honda and alot of the staff that were made redundant before Team Brawn emerged, as they did alot of the development with this car.

Credit where its due.

nice to see Farrari behind (or not see them LOL):blush:

Yes, Honda had 700 people to design and build their new car - so did Ferrari, McLaren, etc. What does that prove?

Brawn may have fewer people, but then again they don't need a test team (mostly banned during the season) and they don't need an engine integration team (no engine changes of note now allowed) and they don't need a wind tunnel team owrking on natty little bits to screw on the bodywork (not allowed). And, on top of that, they are working into a set of Rules designed to reduce costs.

Whatever the rights and wrongs, this situation has been happening on some level ever since Colin Chapman made the Ford/Cosworth DFV a stressed member of the chassis, and everyone else played catch-up until his untimely death because he was so good at reading the Rules and making things that met them - but better. There's nothing new under the sun... (except Jenson having a competitive car - go Button!! :thumbsup:)

going completly of topic now i apoligize but i wanted to ask does anybody know if there are any plans to rescue wrc as i hear next season there will only be ford running seems a shame that the likes of mitsibishi and subaru pugoet and others are all prepeard to let the sport die after making thier money from it i bet collin mcrea and richard burns would be turning in thier graves rip boys agian sory for going off topic

Unfortunately I'll think you'll find most of those manufacturers would take issue with you saying they made money from it, the reason its on its arse is because they didn't! Don't get me wrong, in the past its made a big difference to the image of a manufacturer such as Subaru, but I don't think they are making money now from it or have at any time recently! There's no point Peugeot and Citroen being against each other in it either as they sell the same cars!!

Unfortunately the new rules for next year aren't what Citroen/Scooby want either so they'll probably walk too!

i understand were in a recation and times are hard for money just seems a waste to let wrc die

Your right, hopefully it can survive as a privateer class!?

A lot of credit should go to Super Aguri. The double decker diffuser was something they came up with when developing the old Hondas. When they shut down their aerodynamicists moved to Honda to develop this years car, while another ex-Aguri aerodynamicist moved to Toyota.

Brawn making a lot of people redundant got a lot of publicity. Shame nothing has been said about all the redundancies from all the other teams now they don't need a test team, nor do they need 3 teams of modelmakers working shifts to build enough parts to keep the wind tunnels supplied 24 hours a day.

For all the repeated posturing from Renault about their diffuser design being illegal, how come they haven't shown anything to show what the FIA had rejected to prove they are right? :mad:


Part of me wanted the rules to be 'clarified' (you can't ban a part that's currently legal) just to see what explanation the others come up with when Jenson puts it on pole again in China.

The redundancies are a huge shame, but its not the teams fault (any of them), not sugggesting your saying it is by the way, its a consequence of the new rules and "cost cutting" from the FIA

ready cus here comes a bold statement but does the fia actuly have a clue its constanly changeing its mind and nine time out of ten it seems to go to the highest bider bye the way im not saying i could do better

WRC is dying but the IRC looks like it's gonna step up to the mark and surpass it.

Looking at this mornings stories it looks like the Hamiltons are succeeding in kicking Ron Dennis out of his own team, the guy who paid for Hamilton to get to F1:thumbdown:

I really think Mclaren are going to have to bite the bullet and kick Hamilton out at some point, no way should a driver and his dad have this much influence!

I totally agree I have just read this too
The British newspapers are all reporting that Dennis will speak to the staff at McLaren headquarters in Woking today to inform them that his 40-year career in Formula One is over.

The decision is meant to be a pre-emptive strike that will not only lessen McLaren's punishment but also ensure that the team holds onto Lewis Hamilton, as his father/manage Anthony is still debating whether to move his son to another team.

The Daily Mail claims that 'his withdrawal will also meet with approval in the Hamilton household. Lewis's father and manager, Anthony, finds Dennis prickly and arrogant. They have not seen eye to eye for some time.

'It is understood that Hamilton Snr and Mosley have been in contact over the last few days, with both keen to see Dennis leave the sport. The Hamiltons have sided with Whitmarsh since the scandal broke prior to the Malaysian Grand Prix a fortnight ago.

'The fact that they have effectively won the battle means that Lewis is now unlikely to seek to leave.'.

Kick the hamiltons out we dont need prima donna,s If they cant kick him out put him as third driver till his dad gets his head from out of his arse. It always annoys me when I see him lording it in the pits. Health and safety should ban all but mechanical staff from the race pit area.
By the way did he get prosecuted for crashing a new porche into a playground a while back.
http://ts1.images.live.com/images/th...c0e2774a80de53

Sounds like a wild excuse for a paedophile to me.

The playground incident, not ron dennis:woot:

What summed them up for me was Brazil last year, in the middle of the ecstacy of winning the championship, his dad cared more about him only speaking into the microphones of tv companies who always said what they wanted!! You could clearly hear him say in Lewis' ear "this one's ITV, they are ok to speak to" :thumbdown:

Dave i think that is only natural though, if i had been slagged off by spanish press all year i wouldn't want to speak to them when there was people there who had supported you all year.

I do agree though his dad is a tit, im surprised he hasn't run up on to the podium and snatched the trophy out of lewis' hands yet and shouted "ITS MINE ALL MINE" :lol:

I thought Ron Dennis announced a while back that he would be steeping down from McLaren's F1 activities to concentrate on the road side of the McLaren and that Martin Whitmarsh would be taking over...

I certainly remember reading about it long before the F1 season got going...

Very true, i wouldn't believe everything you hear/read in the press, they make stuff interesting to sell papers remember ;)

According to SSN Ron dennis has stepped down!!! :(

I think the press are making this into a bigger story than it is!

Was always planned for him to step away from the F1 side of things...

pitty realy i know hamilton has a get out cluas in his contract for slander against his name he shold leave instead of ron dennis in my opinion