Yeah well said and its been said before other classes do just fine without a battery list or motors or esc.

I am getting confused as to whether people think the EB list is wrong (for what it is designed for, national and regional racing) or whether they think that the Off-Road section impose the list on anyone and everyone racing buggies?

Without a shadow of doubt the most sensible post on this thread:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I agree, more reasons to be jealous of the Dutch

So here lies a perfect example of how a poll online voting can fuck some thing up.

You want to get rid of the brca homlogation list?
Batteries, motors and Speedo lists? Because that's what the poll is asking and its not specific

So how many use the eb lists and how many do not?

So in the Netherlands they have no restrictions and are things "a mess" up there?

Exectly why on line voting does not work, word it wrong or don't know the facts, and screw something up....

Did they do it that way with online voting?

OH Dear,
Homologation is not to stop Lipo Fires.

It's a set of rules to make sure all equipment is to a set design size and standard.
It limits the cost to you the driver, the added benifit is you have full Insurance cover by complying with BRCA rules.

Its pretty obvious the guys who don't understand this have not been racing for many years. It used to be a lot more expensive!! the EB board actually help minimise cost!!!

I use 2 lipo packs in all the classes i race, they are on the list and have not been replaced for 2 years. they work well still.

Any one who is arguing the cost is too high at less than £100 for 1 year plus of fair homologated racing does not get racing!!!!

The only reason not to get a Lipo on the list is if it does not comply with the spec. So ask yourself again why are the cheap Lipo not on the list? Because they do not comply with the industry standard that the major manufacturers adhere too! and that can be very expensive! for example, We submitted Team Orion 1s lipo for Homologation that failed due to being slightly oversize! It should not have been a big problem you may think? Well we just got thousands of lipos made that are now not approved!!!. To compensate we gave every customer who purchased one a free Homologated Lipo. I don't want to mention the cost but that's what we did to be fair!!!

If the EB board did not exist our lipo would have been used, next month another manufacturer would bring out one 1mm bigger to squeeze more MH
and so and so on till the lipo became oversize and starts not to fit the cars they was designed for.
Then what do the Car manufacturers do? they start to make different cars to fit bigger or different shaped Lipos. and so on and so on. This means to be competitive you have to keep buying new Lipos and cars just because there is no control!!!
And if anyone thinks this is stupid then think again as this is actually what happend for many years! Nimh became very dangerous and cost to keep updating your cells with latest just to keep up with the quick guy at the club was £500 to £2000 per year! It did happen and we remember it! It is our JOB to let The uneducated know that and accept it!!!!
So we better apologise as we failed!

And that's my first Post not making fun of the guys who do not know! for that i apologise.:blush:

So is that what's happening in 1/8 ebuggy with no rules? Or in the Netherlands?

1/8th E Buggy is still developing. I believe next year will be the First Euro event.
There are problems in 8th with reliability of Electronics and Lipos. The cost is not as big an issue as 10th as the guys that race accept high cost so far. Until the class grows big enough and evolves i guess you wont see any strict rules. If the racers get tired with some continuing development and cost they may vote for some control on that next AGM, But maybe next year if the Euros are popular and some special guy wins with some special electrics it will be done anyway.
Dont forget EB board was created at request of racers to control the cost and to standardise the class.
In Holland the RC Scene is not so big and controlled. The people are more relaxed about such things and vaguely follow EFRA regs.

Holland has the same sort of organisation as the UK.

It's called NOMAC, (Google 'Nomac RC' and it'll pop up) click on the 'Clubs' tag to give you a rough idea of the racing scene.

They generally follow a combination of their own and EFRA rules.

In short what you have in the UK is pretty much the same as you have anywhere else in the world - it's essentially an amateur run sport, generally enthusiasts who give up their time to get involved.

This thread is largely (with some very good exceptions) embarrassing to our sport:blush:

The dramatic lack of knowledge about how are sport works is quite simply sad - why don't some of you ask before typing on a thread that's been read by thousands of people?

it's not hard to get your head around, nor is it hard to figure out how to change it - The instructions on how to do it are written in the handbook!

The entire association officials list is in your Handbook, you can easily find out what people do for a living.. I work for MAN Trucks, the Chairman is retired, the Secretary works with pressure washers, the EB chairman works in an engineering business, the 1/12 chairman works for Lotus etc, etc

Ordinary racers, doing ordinary jobs who'll go and find out how the world actually works, so we can all race in as fair and as reasonably safe as possible environment.

If the passion illustrated on here was turned into actually getting something done then you might, just might, turn round the situation where healthy clubs are disappearing because people won't run them, good people are leaving the sport because of the flak they get on forums like this.

There's a lot of people on here who need to have a good hard THINK - make 100% certain you understand why before savaging your keyboard.
Then, make 100% certain you're actually prepared to DO what you say you want done.
Then Do It.

These last little bits currently separate most of you from the Club and the Association officials - some of your think are corrupt (!), stupid and just out to make life complicated...
But
That's why I'm sitting here typing as the Association Treasurer (though my predecessor wasn't crap - I just wanted it done a different way) so I got up and said so - just as you're doing. - and then did it.

Our sport relies on people doing just that - get off your backside and find out how things are done, then offer to do it better/right.
Then try and spread that knowledge to others by answering their questions as best you can - and never, ever stop learning while you do it.

And when you don't know STFU until you've found out, as it'll stop you making a complete idiot of yourself.. :D

Right

Back to Basics

The OP's first Post.

You Can't - so the Poll is pointless.

The EB wasn't created for 1/10 Off Road.

It's was created, by and for, all the Electric Sections - even those that currently don't use the EB lists (in all their forms - some use All, some use part, some none) were involved.

So the lists will stop when all the sections stop using them - it would take a vote in each class to pass.

So

The poll should be:-

Should the BRCA 1/10 Off Road section stop using the EB Battery List for Nationals & Regionals.

The lists don't apply to club racing - or bashing - so you can all forget those bits.

So Somebody start a poll with the right question!

This was a proposal for regionals to use non sanctioned batteries wasnt it? The reaction by some seems as if it's to sacrifice a virgin before each heat. No manufacturer is going to build a car or battery for regionals.

Jim,

There are a lot of people who appreciate your work, myself included, hell I even appreciate the work done by Mark Christopher is getting his part of the sport recognised and organised.

There will always be people who are negative about online stuff, mostly because they are less than clueless about how things can be made to work given the correct oversight. I guess thats why the internet is the single greatest advancement in technology ever, and why a very large amount of its traffic is used for illicit purposes. People like their anonymity and very few have the balls to say to your face what they will bang on about for days online.

I've been reading a thread on facebook with interest where the main gobshites from this and the other thread have been bitching and moaning. The only person to have any kind of intelligible input has been Cockers. While I disagree with his viewpoint, I understand it.

To once again quote MIB - "A person can be smart, but people are dumb panicky animals and you know it"

With proper oversight things can be made to work flawlessly. Imagine the state of this forum without the oversight of the mods?

Keep doing what you're doing Jim, clearly you're doing it well.

AC

Hi Ac

And to add to all this there's a thread a few down where a blokes offering to build a new track in the West Mids / welsh border area, looking for some help and it's had no replies what-so-ever..

Folk would rather argue about things then offer to help grow their sport..

Well said Jim :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Not sure I agree with your first comment Jim.

Forums exchange views and knowledge, that is what was happening. That's certainly how I use it. This thread was a poll and generated plenty of both ;)

Written rules in a manual do not help with an understanding of how we got there and why they exist. I have been racing only for 2 years and was not involved back in the days some of you are referring to.

The knowledge gained here helps guide and form new views and opinions, done publicly it helps more people than just me.

Well said.

Surely what's more embarassing is the irrelevant views about things of yesteryear.
Things move on

The problem you are facing Jim Spencer is the fact a lot of guys don't know about the BRCA what they do or why they do it.

many guys are on the Fringe of clubs and Regional racing, and just don't understand what why who and how!

Its all our responsibility as members of the BRCA to inform them.

and lets not mix up the real guys who want to play with the real enthusiasts and confirm to our sanctioning, To those that want to stir some trouble.

I think col should lock thread as it is going nowhere
the brca is the same as fia Moto gp they give you a set of rules to run to
people should think alot of people on brca committee have been there done it read book
bought t shirt scene video

rules are there to keep some sort of standard
and not open free for all
I have seen many changes over 25 years of racing and at least the new brca list are more consistent

keep doing a good job Jim and brca committee
������

Wish I could have a say in my pay. Shouldnt people be impartial? It's like MPs voting for their own pay rises

Don't understand this comment.

Anyway, some great background reading on the electric board is on:http://www.brca.org/content/electric-board/1396
On the same website are the 1/10 offroad section rules.
Wouldn't it make more sense to ask specific questions about these rules rather than speculating or asking vague questions?

Because what happened yesteryear got is where we are today, which is a pretty damn good place. It could be a whole lot worse.

Without the work that was done in yesteryear by the people (who we, the BRCA members voted in) behind the scenes of the EB, we'd be in a much worse place.

Classes wouldn't necessarily use the the same batteries across class. You'd be buying new batteries every week, they could still be worse than what team guys get. I'm not just talking about Regional or National level, I'm talking worldwide. The work done by the very same people has laid the foundations for EFRA, IFMAR, ROAR and pretty much every other governing body, so that all racers worldwide use the same framework. This may not seem relevant at your local club, but for any drivers that wish to progress to larger races it's great.

Believe it or not, the rules weren't created by one guy overnight just for fun. They were discussed, created, modified and implemented to solve problems that the BRCA members were facing, and they were done in such a way that brought 99% of countries onto the same line. The people who don't realise this seem quite willing to undo all that hard work for the sake of some cheap lipo's, without any thought to the potential consequences (which at a guess would be minimum the same problems we previously had).

I mean people who sell batteries who champion the list. I cant believe any manufacturer of car or lipo would design something for some regionals.
The real problem here is hobbyking not submitting, I've contacted them so maybe I'll hear something. Maybe if some more people on here did the same we could get somewhere? Seeing as this list seems to be so precious.

The list was originally championed by racers, to save them money ;) The guys selling batteries were more than happy selling the battery of the month each month. I'd imagine that they were pretty frustrated at the creation of the list and rules. They were then only allowed to sell new batteries once a year and there was a maximum price so they couldn't increase it beyond reasonable (and I believe it stayed pretty stable for years!). Do you think battery sellers would rather have the pre or post list scenario?

No, a manufacturer probably wouldn't for regionals, correct. But a guy in his garage might, and find an odd shaped lipo that will fit. Great for him, unlucky for anyone trying to race against him on a level playing field.

The regionals are supposed to be a stepping stone to nationals. How would you feel after doing a year of regionals, going to your first national and finding your cells aren't legal and you can't race? Club racing is supposed to be the step before regionals, which is why I'd always recommend to a club racer to buy a lipo from the list.

I feel we actually all agree there should be rules and a list for nationals and above? The debate is about regionals? Personally I don't feel informed enough to make a decision on what regional rules should be. As MattW said, there was a proposal to remove the list for regionals, and for whatever reason that proposal was withdrawn. I'm guessing it was withdrawn for a very sensible reason that was explained at the meeting. I'd expect that when the section minutes are available it'll also be noted in there for is all to know, simples!

Deleted cos Toms answer was much better

Right, I've resisted posting until now! My views are as follows:

1) Jim Spencer, Slowone, DCM- you have the patience of a saint!
2) Tom Cockerill - you comments are very rational and give a good balanced account of why the list actually exists.
3) I probably won't be racing in the regionals as I tend to do other things during the summer and I only have Hobbyking LIPOs
4) The poll results at best show that there is divided opinion as to whether we need a list for 1/10 off road regionals or not.
5) I would like to see Hobbyking LIPOs on the list -
6) Hobbyking - get your finger out Hobbyking as you sell LIPOs that are top quality and an excellent price. You are obviously committed to the UK market, otherwise you won't have opened a UK warehouse, just another £40 investment would take that even further.
7) I like the BRCA but after reading the comments on facebook, there are a small handful of members who are complete tossors.
8) I think these threads have been useful as I am quite heavily involved with my clb and organising events, yet I have learned a hell of a lot about the BRCA and how it works.
9) Enough has been said and we are all going round in circles.

Peace out good people

respect

explain the difference between a person voting at the AGM to keep the battery list because he happens to have a vested interest in selling them and someone voting to lose the list because he has access to cheap batteries not on the list.

i understand that making racing cheaper for themselves is a priority for some, others will spend huge sums on the latest parts.
all motor sport incurs costs, the further into the sport the more the cost and more rules, we currently have a set of rules which allow clubs to decide what they will allow racers to run at clubs, we then step up these rules into regional events, they increase at national level and again at euro and world levels.
the decision here is at what point is a particular rule applied, you wish to apply the battery list at national level rather than the current regional level.
you may have strong support from other racers, unfortunately this year you will have to either buy listed batteries or not do regionals, next year you could propose a change and put it to the AGM, it may pass it may not.

Well if hobbyking lipos escs and motors were allowed by the brca then sales of other products would drop. I'm obviously all for shops and get all my spares etc from herts or anywhere that has it online.
If someone's voting to create a monopoly on the market then that's unfair

What he said :thumbsup:

Let's get some things straight. None of the rules are there for the benefit of a few.

Nobody on the committee is making money off them.

Yes, distributors submit batteries as their market is RACING so it would be pointless not having their batteries/motors on the list, it has nothing to do with monopolies, you could say it is good business sense/marketing.

HobbyKing sales probably wouldn't spike if they went on the list and as the people who run their distribution centre are probably to busy to appease a small sector of the market.

NON Racing fun hobbyist far outnumber racers.

For me, the list isn't an issue, complying with the rules when doing nationals is something you have to adhere to, and to be fair, with the cost of travelling to nationals, hotel/camping, food, tyres etc makes battery cost irrelevant.

Regional, there are currently rule that do not have to be used at regional events, to me, the list is something that is an obstacle to those wanting to have a go/non-serious racer or if there is no scrutineering, an opportunity for a blind eye.

Its not about making it cheaper for themselves personally, its about making it cheaper for everyone. Money should not be a barrier to entry to race, otherwise you get the crappiest racers winning because they have the best equipment. Of course money is a barrier to entry, and therefor the BRCA should be doing all it can to mitigate that, this is how I see things anyway. How can it be a good thing that people are only winning because they have more money, in the interest of competition i cannot see how this can be a good thing. I am not talking about the nationals. The guys at the top of there are amazingly talented, and they would win regardless of what they drove, because they have talent. Really this only applies to the mid range of club racing. I personally have nothing more to add to the discussion now :)

Wrong knowledge - most Sections do run to the lists. Get you rfacts straight...

We are the centre of the RC LiPo market. Together with ROAR we have led the world and given the manufacturers a specification to work within. EFRA and IFMAR are just two organisations that have followed us. As a result you can buy a battery from HK that will fit your car, and one from the list that means you can compete anywhere in the world and be within the rules.

Every manufacturer is making cells for BRCA rules, as they are the rules adopted across the world so if a manufacturer wants to sell to RC, they have to make cells to our rules.

Oval and e-buggy - two Sections out of the electric sections. Oval use the motor list and TC use the 12th Section speedo list for blinky. The only Section using none of the lists is e-buggy and Micro.

E-buggy haven't asked for the list of their cells, and since they can't even agree on whether it is 3S, 4S or any other 'S', they aren't ready to have a list. Their Section is new and finding its feet, so it's no surprise they don't have or want a list just yet. once that settles down it is something they can consider, but like all new classes, the enthusiasts setting it up are finding what will make it successful.

That's the problem Jim is talking about - this is just exchanging views. Much of the rest is not knowledge, it is just supposition and uninformed comment. That's what Jim, Terry and I keep saying - check your facts and stop posting what is frankly, bollocks.

Why people think that they have to say something that is wrong, and not ask a question if they are not sure, I have no idea. The three most powerful words you can use in any situation are "I don't know." If you then go and find out and can then respond with facts and reasoned analysis, you will go far.

Most of the time in my business people who cannot say those three words talk crap assuming that the people they are talking to are ignorant, or bullshit their way through and think the other person can't see that. That is a recipe for career and social disaster, all because they can't admit they don't know.

Please be aware that much of what people post here to justify their view is wrong. Everyone is entitled to a view, but these days it seems to be the norm that people are not strong enough to argue their view, they have to quote something as fact to justify it. Since so many of those 'facts' are transparently wrong, the situation just gets worse, not better.

YEster-year is irrelevant? So what you're saying is that everything you learn each day you disregard tomorrow because it is now irrelevant? If you fell off your bike yesterday by going too fast, you do the same thing the next time? I think not.

You're just like the politicians - completely ignorant of the past and willing to repeat previous mistakes over and over again. Times may change, but situations don't. It is the past, and one's experience of the situations we find ourselves in, that allows us to manage to keep living in the present.

There's a big difference between modernisation and keeping up with the times. BRCA EB lists are very good at keeping up with the times.

Spot on Neil! We all do our best to help people understand, but it is not easy to get that message across when people do not want to listen. The worst part is doing a job for the BRCA and effectively being insulted and vilified by others who not only do not know us, but actively avoid finding out and offering any help to keep up with the times and keep the sport going.

Perhaps the most dispiriting thing is that if we were all in the pub, most of the views and comments expressed here would not be said to our faces. It won't stop me, but it is hard to take.

Disregarding the rest of the post, the above comment is hilarious.

90% thumbs, 9% tyres, 1% "equipment"

Give any of the national top 20 guys a RTR on decent tyres and they will lap your average regional driver.

I'm not saying anyone on the committee has anything to do with batteries etc just other people do.
And as far as I was aware the only restriction for 1/8 buggy was 4s, seeing as at Slough there was only one final they can't be too choosey which is fine by me.
And anyway as I said earlier maybe the more people who contact hobbyking the better. Then everyone would be happy if they were homologated :)

Of course some people do, and if having an homologation list allows them the structure to get products made, assessed and homologated to make them more salable to the racing fraternity, then so be it, that is business in the end, I don't see where the issue is. They aren't making the rules, they are not enforcing them, they are merely using the lists as a tool to make products and sell them, simples, nothing devious in that.

question for you, do you actually know why thier not allowed by the brca/on the list?