ok, slightly confused.

Shy put a proposal forward to EFRA based purely on voltage and capacity?

BRCA put a proposal forward stating voltage and dimensions?

and EFRA accepted both, joining them together?

yet Norway are going to run to ROAR rules for their own club/national series? So if they run at the Euros they would have to get different cells compatible with EFRA?

Is there anything to stop the BRCA going this route too, to scrap the dimension rule? or does this have to wait until next year now?

YES! The americans managed to vote for Bush two times... but they're not entirely stupid!

Just allow the hardcased saddles already on the ROAR list. If some manufacturer manages to do the trick as to making saddles smaller and still hardcased - just add that as well! It would sell like hot bread!

If Trakpower could make em' exactly the size of NiMH - of course they would!!!

What could have been done at the EFRA AGM was not to vote for the BRCA proposal. Or for BRCA to withdraw it.

Those with chassises made for stickpack of course don't give a damn...

@Jim76: That's spot on! Except capacity is also from BRCA

I'm trying to understand all this, can anyone help with:

How did the BRCA proposal end up including the dimensions unless we asked for them?

Having proposed those dimensions could they not have been amended at the AGM?

As I understand you asked your EB to more or less "take care of it"... simply stating "we want LiPo"...

Of course they do a great job and have the best of intentions. Just be more specific NEXT year! :D I'm confident they'll appreciate more detailed input. Those guys have a lot to coordinate!

I for one would be more than happy to help formulate a proposal (for any country) if asked. There's so many great ideas around, but most of them are never sent.

And Mark: I'm not gonna pull your leg anymore! Even though it was served with some "strong mustard" most of your points in the initial discussion were very sensible. So those were incorporated in the proposal from Norway :thumbsup: You guys represent the #1 scene for 1:10 OR in Europe - you've got first hand knowledge!

matt as i understand it they were not allowed to discuss size at the agm

the brca proposal stated 5000mah, odd how that got changed!! especially as this is claimed to be race legal before the AGM.......... http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/vtec-b...v-28c/details/

the BRCA claimed to want dimensions to create a level playing field, well they have done that:thumbdown: all that has happend now is that the most popular lipo saddle wont be legal, even though they fit in cars, and now lipo users have one modern stick pack car to buy should they wish to run lipo........level playing field my ass!

but capacity got adjusted to suit other manufactures http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/vtec-b...v-28c/details/

Do they fit the dimensions though!??

Again, if someone can answer, if the dimensions can;t be discussed at the AGM, who chose the dimensions exactly!?

so is that saddle compatible with the new rules?

i personally don't care which company it is (but i assume Nosram will bring out an identical pack lol), as long as i can use a lipo next year!

It does seem very harsh on trakpower though as they were the front runners pushing lipo.

It was in the agenda before the EFRA AGM.

That LRP saddle is not hardcased as far as I can see.

Mark - you know the guys at Trakpower don't you? Can you please give them a call and ask if it's at all possible at this point in time to make hardcased saddles that comply with the max. dimensions? And how low mAh rating it would take to do so...

I can hear "2000 mAh"... ;)

just checked the pack dimensions, it's 25mm deep, so outside the rules also! but it is the correct length.

so the capacity got adjusted (lifted) to level the playing field compared to nimh!!! :confused:

My trakpower stick pack doesnt state its capacity anywhere (original 4900 pack)

im guessing this is going to cause a problem? :cry:

You got a permanent marker Dan!!:woot::thumbsup:
Agreed, it is such a shame for trakpower if their saddles aren't within the legal dimensions as they were one of the first to jump on the hard cased saddles. Lots of investment already:(

The dimensions are exactly the same as used by ROAR, it's pretty useful to use the same dimensions as everyone else. The Trakpower batteries aren't ROAR legal either according to their dimension rules, but ROAR allow them as the choice of saddle packs are limited to the Trakpowers and a pack from SMC so right now ROAR ignore the dimensions of them. I'm sure if others started making saddle packs under 139mm overall length then the rules will be tightened.

From this thread

It'd be good to know if any ok saddle packs are on their way?

If not, I'm not changing car so would probably get some Nimh again to get a setup sorted!

Someone knows a saddle pack that fit these dimension?

I have look for and haven t found any.

For ROAR
Physical Specs:

8.3.2.2.1 Hard Case & Dimensions
A factory encased hard shell pack is mandated for race durability reasons that stem from the
vulnerability of Lipo cells to physical damage. Any physical distortion, denting or puncture to
the cells will cause either an immediate or long term safety risk. A hard cased pack reduces
this risk significantly by protecting the cells from crash damage, battery ejection, and general
wear and tear at the track.

The maximum dimensions are:
Length: 139mm +0mm/-3mm
Width: 47mm +0mm/-2mm
Height: 25.1mm +0mm/-3.0mm

These are in place to standardize pack dimensions in order for chassis manufacturers to now
be able to design around a consistent set of fixed dimensions.

RC is not really a big industry. And makers of LiPo packs have to use industry standard LiPo single cells. If you look at RC airplanes you can get very small to very big packs. But once you get up to a usable mAh rate for cars the packs need to be a certain dimension.

Surely Trakpower made the smaller 3200 saddle packs in order to make fitting easier, as the 4800 ones are a bit big. If you need anything smaller than that the mAh rating will again need to be smaller... and you'll then have runtime problems - and also loose the fantastic feature of long practise runtimes with LiPo. Not to forget the weight is low per se so you'd rather carry a larger battery. Lead weight does not give extra runtime ;)

And as long as it's not a competitive advantage why should EFRA bother for 1:10 OR?

The LRP says race legal, bit if it doesn't meet ROAR specs where is it legal?

I'm beginning to think it's back to nimh for me, if Lipo have been legal for a year in the US but there's still no saddle Lipo's about and no stick Lipo cars other than the Cat, can't see that changing much in the next 5 months, hope I'm wrong!!

The size thing seems to have "defaulted" to something not quite what we wanted, just like life in many ways. Seems to me there has to be some movement from the BRCA or battery assemblers to allow saddles or make saddles that fit.
We cannot have an option that excludes most modern 4 wheel drive cars.

SMC is close with 4900 @ 67x45x25 1.5mm to tall, I would love to use this pack if...... Ref: http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...ddle-pack.html

MaxAmps have 4000 @ 69x45x21, 3300 @ 66x34x19, 2200 @ 66x34x13

so perhaps saddles can be produced.

I want to race next year with one type of cell with my charger set to lipo, but I may have to carry two types of batteries and two chargers and adjust weight as we go. I cannot believe that after all the discussion over the last year we have reached this position - by default.

Don't forget the Lazer ZX5-SP ...... with a 3200 LiPo slotted in it's side to side balance is near spot on!!!

From ROAR:

"*This pack is configured saddle pack style and has been granted conditional approval until saddle pack dimensions are established"

I think this means that ROAR will make a set of max dimensions for saddle packs. I.e. bigger than for stickpacks. Which is common sense!

What is commercially available & safe now the drivers can compete with - way to go!

Is there any way for the EB to revise the size specs, or adopt a seperate saddle pack size before 1st April?

LIPO was approved at the AGM by the racers, and it's up to the EB to set the rules/specs. Can they bring in some sort of emergency change that can take affect for next season, pending a propper revision at next years AGM?

Doesn't hurt to try! Give PW a call! :thumbsup:

I raised all these points at the agm, as my main concern was if we go along with the brca efra proposal then there are no commercial available lipo saddles that fit within the sizes. I guess i did not get the point across that well :(

But we were advised that we could not deiced on the size of lipos as this is upto the EB, the other option would be to break away from the EB, but there was no proposal to do this.

I am sure that the trakpower saddles would be allowed next year, as i cannot see any other manufactures getting tooled up and into production in time to get them submitted for approval. And maybe the EB will relax the size requirement for next year only, or until there are more saddle lipo options available?. Fingers crossed :thumbsup:

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

Maybe thats what they wanted?

thats they way im seeing it.................:thumbdown:

C'mon guys! They're doing their best - and with the best intentions! And stop saying "they" - this is "YOU" :)

Just someone of you guys summon up the key points here and send an e-mail to PW! How about Jonathan and Craig doing this?

They have a large room of play in making these rules it seems - so make sure they get as much input as they can!

And don't forget... the finished rules in the EFRA handbook has not always been the same as what was in the minutes. This year they forgot to specify one mandatory fuel stop for 200mm when they increased the qualification heats to 7 minutes... to solve the fuel consumption problem ;)

this year 2008 rules was 5 mins

next year is 7 mins no fuel stop as the prosal. 8th is 7 plus mandatory stop.


its certainly not us.............or it would have been decided at the brca agm the eb, answer to them selves! brca sections opt weather or not to use em, me thinks the bikes have it right

Mark, now I officially give up on you... :eh?: 10-4!

I love it when you two fight, it makes my day, such interesting topics too :thumbsup:

How about a thread making up for next years agm proposals :woot::thumbdown:

:lol:

hurrahhhhh thank got for that.....................................:thumbsup :

I think many would still. As the Nimh cells would be used half as much, last twice as long!

But what may also happen, is certain cars become less popular, OR some racers may choose to just do one class (less likely). As to be honest, who wants to use Nimh atall? Not me - id rather sit out a season of nationals/regionals until Lipo does come in.

The BRCA and Efra realise that to not allow Lipo would significantly cut the entries at there events as there are many who don't want to buy Nimhs, I see them as a waste of money now. Basically Lipo has got to be allowed, just by how much we've yet to see. But the decision makers are there to represent us, from experience they do that well and I hold a lot of hope for the rules we need to be what we get.

Chris

Sorry for being Mr Thickie Blackadder Thickie here but.... surely it is the responsibility of BRCA/EFRA/EB or whomever to, with the help of their representatives, create a set of rules that will create a level playing field and be simple to scrutineer and abide by - hence they should be concerned with nominal voltage, capacity, even maximum current discharge, charging methodology and the homologation process.

Standardisation of size will be a benefit to many racers, but thats really up to the manufacturers to agree amongst themselves? If you desgn a chassis, you are wise to design ones that will accomodate as many cell types as possible and conversely, if you design cells then you are wise to design them so they fit as many chassis' as possible?? I see no reson why dimensions should play a part when output and capacity are the factors that affect its perfromance??

A 20c 5000mah 7.4v lipo shaped like a banana is no better or worse than the trakpower or orion equivalent, but people wont use it because its stupid. I would suggest setting the key technical specifications and leave the ones that are purely academic to market forces. LxWxH and ground clearance for the overall cars fine, but dimensions for the internals seems a bit unnecessary to me. But like I say, apologies if I'm being thick.

btw I have a zx-5 and orion carbon lipos:thumbsup: but I dont race right now anyway:thumbdown:

All this discussion between us is all well and good but we need to speak to the BRCA? The options are;

I would have thought phil sleigh would be the best to email and discuss this with

TBH the set of rules regarding the size of lipo's was fully expected.

At last winters worksop series whan Mark Christopher had a set of the saddle pack trackpower batteries he was passing around to check fitment into different chassis we took the time to measure them.

The issue was raised at the time that if the BRCA and EFRA were prepared to ban the previous seasons NIMH batteries for being marginally over sized they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions should LIPO or any other battery technology be allowed in future years as this could be said to give them an immediate advantage.

If me and others had these thoughts last year surely the cell manufacturers must have considered it.

The only thing we couldn't decide upon was the reedy pack with the locating humps on would the humps be included or excluded in any measurements.

hmmm so then

average nimh sub c diameter is 22.9mm x 6 (in stick form ) = 137.4mm
average length 43mm X3 to make a "tamiya style stick pack" 129mm (agreed no soldering or connections in that)(taken from EB dimensions)


New lipo stick pack max length 139mm,
which kind of craps on your "they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions " theory some what!!


some of the lipo suppliers have never had any involvment with nimh so they made packs to fit cars...............

instead of shouting on here, why not wait to see whats on the rolling list that was promised buy PW, and see if there are any saddle packs out that will fit the job, remember they have until April to get it sorted, I'm sure there are packs out there already that fit the dimensions and the 5500mah limit.i know there are sticks that will be legal, and I'm pretty sure saddles to, just wait and see,

This would be the advantage of having lipo stick and lipo saddle packs being the same overall dimension, as in the new rules.
Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd, so you end up buying a lipo stick pack for 2wd and a lipo saddle pack for 4wd if the next 2wd buggies are designed around a 139mm lipo pack length.

Playing devils advocate here...

The problem here isn't the dimensions, SMC and Maxamps make packs that fit inside the rules and are legal if they end up on the EB list. The problem is that the most popular saddle pack around at the moment, the Trakpower, is too big. Now Trakpower and the other manufacturers have dimensions to work to they can produce packs that fit, the only problem is whether everyone considers we should bend the rules to fit one particular battery pack like ROAR has done. Then if we allow the Trakpower because it is already available what about the Maxamps 6000mah which has also been around for some time but is over the capacity limit?

Give it a year and this won't be a problem as there should be plenty of choice that fits the rules, there might be many more packs around by next April. No one can say right now whether the Trakpowers will be allowed or not, as a transitional year the EB might approve them, and there is of course the question if you are running at the nationals or regionals will you still be using this years lipos or will you be buying new lipo packs ready for the new season anyway?