Jon D
 

Defo buggy rep material there lad, ya got my vote 🐀🐀🐀

PMSL
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Just back home and checking oOple. The great and interesting debate rolls on, good to see.

I enjoy reading well written, thoughtful posts and this thread has had many of these although I think The Bod has TQ so far. A great even handed, balanced reflection of where we are. I couldn't disagree with any of his post.

Also Jon makes a good point about Southport and their fairly simple tracks. I must admit their track feels a lot larger than Ribble but they're both based in a sports hall so can't be too different. I'll post in the Southport section and ask, Simon will know.

We could make the track wider but that would mean less track effectively. The lap times aren't the longest now, around 13/14 second average, so if that dropped to a 10 second average would that create more issues?

A lot of people have mentioned ride height, and ensuring its sufficient but what would that be? My car was 7mm at both ends last week. I'm going to experiment this week and raise it to 8mm at the rear and 10mm front. My thinking is surely no one could argue that's too low, especially if I bump stop it at 4mm so it can't bottom out. I'm hoping it'll be better over the jump and hardly lose anything in the infield. We'll see.

Back to topic, Lee you're right, if everyone attends the AGM, it'll certainly be interesting:woot:

Could just ban additive for buggys. Foams would be great then and everyone would be slower and we can have a drift class.:lol:

It would als put less stress on the drive train, but I think that's just an issue I suffer with. :lol:

Serious suggestion on additive though.

Matt on the additive I think after round 1 the mardaves would put down enough that the difference wouldn't be that great.

Also what stops people loading the foams by soaking them during the week. They aren't cheating because they aren't applying additive at the meeting but that's just human nature and it happens at every level. The last 8th on road worlds nearly got cancelled because of legal cheating. In the end I think they got round it by the organisers giving the competitors hand out tyres a few minutes before the start of the heats.

Now we aren't there and this is racing for fun so if we add rules they need to be a benefit. I'm wondering who would enforce them and do you not think that would detract from the easy going nature of the club?

Well thanks to Eric at SRCC we've the dimensions of what they use.

Astro size 30metres x 4metres x 3 rolls. Pitting 2x 2mx30m carpet with approx 2m strip of concrete flooring. Track min 2.5m, straight 3m with max 8 cars in heats/finals

For those who haven't been its a great set up at Southport and worth the trip. They race on the Astro and use carpet to cover the pitting area to avoid damage to the floor.

How does that compare to the Ribble track?

Ribble track is 2m all round I think, tho im sure it narrows at points. The last track had a 2.5m straight if i remember correctly and that would be ideal all round so all we are asking is another 1m of carpet roughly, which I'm sure could be accommodated if people set up the pit area properly. It would also make life easier if the straight went under the rostrum rather than the opposite side of the hall.

Theres a key point there andy, what ever rules are imposed on tyres or such like there is always a way of cheating, always starts with one person and then spreads to others. :thumbdown:
The same thing would happen I think with a control tyre, even if they are marked in some way, there will always be a work around, then you are into spending loads of cash on tyres.
This is just repeating stuff from earlier now.
I think more features, bigger carpet, higher ride heights etc.. are all god suggestions and hope something can be worked out, but banning foams I dont think is the way forward in my own personal opinion.

On foams front there was only limited intrest in my option to get some cheap foam donunts but I havent ordered yet so if anyone is intrested let me know as will be at the club friday (I am the one with the white Yokomo). :thumbsup:

(I am the one with the white Yokomo). :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

Assume it is fixed now :)

He is the one with the slow white jokomo

:thumbsup:

Thanks Lee :lol:

Sadly true, must be the foams slowing me down :lol::lol:

Car fixed, destryed both idlers. Car ready to go again.
So in 4 weeks I have broke the diff, idler gears and shock cap. I am glad its a cheap hobby!!
:thumbsup:

We had a control tire for buggy about 3 years ago and it was not popular with buggy racers. If you want the power of purchase the club might be able to help but only if the Majority of buggy racers can agree what to use.

Cheers eric.
I will wait until this is all sorted then we can discuss then.
I can keep the guy on ice for the moment.

:lol:

Surely if as Lee states extra track width has already got committee approval and just needs buying, then why not buy a roll of astro turf (deep pile) this would then make foams / rubbers much more even and personal preference would prevail. Also There is no issue with the gt12 layout so they won't need to go onto the astro section.

For me the main things are:

1 very poor driver etiquette
2 track is too narrow ( see note above)
3 we end up with poor track layouts where for instance we have opposing direction straights - and are then afraid to change it because we voted on it.
4 the track pieces are now in really poor condition ( largely due to foams )
5 there is not enough off road sections for the buggies
6 the rostron is a little too low
7 cars are run too low - but if you address point 5 this will take car of itself

I enjoy coming to rvrccc for fun racing and long may it continue - it's run really well and with slight tweaks address my point above it would be even more fun.

But don't lose sight of the fact the lower heats and finals are the young talent of the future, after all the best driver in the country and ex world champ came through a local club racing for fun just like this.

watching this thread with Interest as an outsider

firstly Ribble are to be wholeheartedly praised for operating a thriving club
Remember clubs are only as successful as the hardcore few (normally) that often sacrifice their racing and time for the enjoyment of others don't abuse them too often or you wont have club at all

I have been a member of my local club for almost 20 years and we started with buggies then "wide salooons " and eventually touring cars we also race Friday nights . we have a similar number of racers we have evolved over these years by slow process, what we have found is that racers come and go from juniors to seniors but the club relies on the same few hardcore regulars that turn up almost every week to set up and run race control and then pack away, take memberships and run the clubs finances

We too try to focus on the juniors and novices they are the future , more experienced racers pick and choose which club/meeting they attend to benefit themselves and their desires, juniors often do not have that option

I have seen clubs that start with all good intentions divert from the path from which they set and eventually folded

club nights should be primarily focused on fun for all novice and "pro" alike
no driver is bigger than a club

It is great to see all this interest in the future of Ribble and whatever the outcome at the AGM I hope that everyone pulls together for the future of the club

overall remember its only Toy car Racing

best wishes from an outsider

dave fiddling

Good to see some banter entering this, Jokomo, love it!:thumbsup: Mind due I can't say to much, that's exactly what happened to my C4.1 last week at Southport. Two idlers and a diff.

Just a question, I've noticed a few people saying, as Rallymaddaz point 5, foams damage the track markings? I'm not sure I understand that, could someone explain please.

I think this thread is now looking for some conclusions which will probably take the form of proposals for the AGM.

In summary, for me anyway. I think all of us agree the format we have at the moment is successful, the racings enjoyable so only minor tweaking in a few areas could be needed.

• The majority of people are in favour of foams.
• Think the track design could be improved although appreciate this is difficult given the restrictions in the size of the hall and the storage.
• Maybe more off road features would be good provided it didn't detract anything from the youngsters and can be stored.
• Are we happy with a 5mm ride height or should it be raised slightly?

I think we've kicked around more that this but these are the area's we keep returning to. I'm looking forward to tomorrow evening, I'll see what an increase in ride height does to my car, it was awesome last week so I'm hoping it's not to different. If anyone wants to have a look how my cars set up please come over and have a chat.

At least jokomo is better than s**t-worxs :lol:

If you run more ride hight on foams you will get more roll and camber change on the wheels which will basically cone the foam more.
So I found you had to compensate for that in the top link setup of the car.
May just be my car though.

Astro turf section, I never thought of that.
Do you reckon that "as good as grass" stuff would work and be like racing outside in the early 90's.:thumbsup:

s**t-worxs:thumbsup:

I've stiffened it up hoping it'll still resist rolling.

Can but try, if its a dog it won't take 10 minutes to put it back.

s**t-worxs..... Would be better if you spelt it properly, it's sworkz.... Mind you it's still more readable than a previous post

[QUOTE=spennyy2k;834377]s**t-worxs..... Would be better if you spelt it properly, it's sworkz....

Steve, it's sworkz.... that doesn't!:D

another pennyworth of thoughts in the debate.
 

Good discussions - Regarding Ride Height issue, Damage to the Carpet is more likely to be caused by cars cartwheeling and screw ends digging in - Shock tower bolts or axle stubs with exposed thread ends for example. The chassis on most if not all cars are flat and to tear a carpet it needs a sharp edge to cut in.

Scrutineering may be helpful - problem is who will do it :confused:

Regarding track layout its easy to criticise, but when members have been asked to suggest layout - little forthcoming. :eh?:

Driver etiquette is a constant issue that pre-race briefing tries to address, safe and considerate driving is the motto that some tend to forget once the red mist of speed takes over, although breaking the car because of hitting the barrier, usually at the end of the long straight is a self imposed penalty ;)

I remember coming home from a meeting in Blackburn cheesed off with some of the demolition derby driving that went on that day, only to watch Formula 1 drivers banging into each other on the tele. :cry: felt better after that :lol:

I like the Juniors Star Chart Series where youngsters get certificates of achievement as their driving skills gain more laps and not just win. Big Thank you to Janice :wub for taking the time to chart their progress.

Over all Ribble must be doing something right to be a successful, well attended club over the years.

Brilliant comment about ride height, I'd not even considered it and you're right, its a lot more likely to be a crashing car, with shock tower bolts or something causing damage rather than a car bottoming out.

The only time that wouldn't be the case would be if a screw has worked loose. Maybe we don't have an issue after all?

Again we need to remember, Ribble is a fun club not aimed at top competition. Yes, as Mark said, people go to race but primarily they go to have an enjoyable evening. That follows into what Morpheus says about Janice doing a great job for the kids. I've told Nathan about the certificates he can get, I think he's more excited about them than the actual racing, especially when he understood he didn't have to win to get them, just complete the benchmark number of laps.

I think its a great concept and hope its continued.

Not a driver so no real input to some of the discussion but I do have a few questions, which you may also want to consider when putting any proposals to the AGM:

1. For the fun drivers who will help them with ride height, tyres or any other stipulations we make. Many juniors come with a parent who has no experience of racing and certainly won't have a whole load of RC stuff which many of you guys have collected over time.
2. Who would scrutineer to make sure that the cars are as stipulated?
3. If we restrict the number of drivers in each heat, are people prepared to turn up and not be able to race because we've already filled all the heats?

Janice

Janice if you put sufficient jumps on the buggy section of track and use a deep pile AstroTurf for the extra width (which already has committed approval from what I am led to believe ) the ride height and tyres will take care of itself - there would be no need to scrutineer - you could stipulate a guideline of 15mm ride height.

8 in a race is what we run anyway so not sure there is any need to turn people away. Perhaps you could run 10 in the gt12 class due to the smaller scale?

Over the last few weeks we have had 9-10 in buggies due to numbers and we've had 14 gt12 so we would have needed to turn people away.

Perhaps make it pre booking only then and have it all set up ready to go during the busy period - track is usually finished by 7ish so you could take half hour or so back there. You could adjust this when the outdoor season starts

Morning All,

I've a few points starting with where is this astro going to go? We don't really have the space to extend the track.

The second is beginners could be put off by multi surface and jumps. They want to learn and develop car control to get round the track without crashing. They aren't, at this stage anyway, interested in learning to fly doubles.

Last point, Why would astro mean the end of foams? Foams work reasonably well on astro, a chap at SRCC sometimes runs foams at their outdoor track. All a racer will do is look to see which gives the best lap time. If 80 or 90% of the track is flat carpet, cars will still be at min ride height, very firm and on the best tyre for the majority of the track.

Final last point, I promise. As Janice said, the core of the club want to turn up and race in a fun, family environment. They don't want to worry about conforming to rules and specifications. If I'm wrong and they do, why not enforce the BRCA lipo and motor lists? That way we could turn most people away and ruin the club very quickly because it seems to me that's what this and most of the other ill conceived and self serving suggestions will do.

RVRCCC is a great fun club which works. Tinker with the fringe things if you want, any chance of bottles instead of cans in the tuck shop please and maybe add or reduce 20p to a transponder rental but please guys, lets all realise what this very successful club is about and leave the core framework alone.

Andy,

Your missing the point and continuing to carry on posting on the other thread when you have been asked not to do so - These are very simple rules that you should be able to comply with "Keep the proposals short and to the point and no long discussions" - For clarity this means stop posting on the other thread now youve had your say.

With regards your above post

1) the extra carpet (or as we are suggesting Astro) already has committe approval from last year, so space must not be an issue.
2) The youngsters actually perform better over the jumps - if you paid attention to what happened last year, when I altered the hump back jump they actually loved it and, performed much better, breakages and crashes wherre substantially reduced.
3) Yes foams will work on short pile astro - again read the previous posts where we are suggesting long pile astro and more jumps - You will naturally have to raise ride height then to accomodate the jumps and you will find there is little difference in performace of the two types of tyre then - Oh and for clarity I dont buy the foams are substantially cheeper arguement because as previously said they chunk, you need attitive - its more difficult for the youngsters as, you have to be in the know to be able to buy a set.
4) Most youngsters buy a ready to run kit off the shelf which is usually pre-built to Off Road buggy spec - so there ride height will be more in tune with the suitibly altered track. - If they want to learn in a on road flat track environment then buy a GT12 not a Off Road Buggy (The clues in the name)
5) with regards Fringe things - I consider the above to be Fringe things without altering the make up of the club - we all love the family atmosphere of the club and the excellent manner in which its run
6) Who mentioned running to BRCA Rules - again read the proposals - the worst it means is that someone checks the ride heights and tyre type, which will only take checking for a month or so before all you will need are spot checks.

Now I suggest we leave it there for others to have there say - you might even find some others agree with you and dont want any change - but carrying on forcing your point is loosing your argument credibility.

I must have missed something on the other thread. Can't find where I was asked not to post?

Never mind. On this thread we've got 4 pages of great discussion, thoughts and ideas, with for's and againsts being aired.

I can't see any problem with that.

The reason I keep posting is to ask how these ideas are going to work. Its no good to simply say I think we should have this and offer no suggestion as to why or how.

Astro for example. I've asked numerous times, with the pits packed and can't be relocated or pushed back where is this extra track going to go? How much of the track will this affect? Where will it be stored because trust me, long pile astro is very heavy. If it was approved at last years meeting why hasn't it happened. I suspect because its in the file marked "to hard to do". We have a growing GT12 section, I assume they aren't going to like having a smaller track?

All manor of things have been mentioned, Jumps, who'll build them and where will we put them? How will the tracks be altered to ensure visibility around the jumps. Again how will the mardaves cope and if they're going to be removed every time who's going to do it.

So if we're going to post suggestions is it to much to ask for some explanation?

Newbies 10pence worth
 

I ran for the first time in three years last week and had a brilliant time, the club is run very well and also very friendly so hats off to you all for that I also had loads of fun on rubber tyres so I will stick with them for now. Iv always hated foams for buggy's but that is just my opinion.

As for the track if you could gain more room then it would be great but for the room there was on Friday I think it was pretty damn good. Bigger tracks with jumps and off road sections are all well and good but it has to be set up and put away afterwards so its a trade off.

The main thing is from my point of view is that it remains good fun racing so if any changes are to be made i would say nothing major.

I've re-read your post and I can't do as you suggest and leave it. Sorry.

1) the extra carpet (or as we are suggesting Astro) already has committe approval from last year, so space must not be an issue.
Already answered really. I've known this committee for a long time and if it hasn't happened its because they've tried and it isn't possible without to much disruption.

2) The youngsters actually perform better over the jumps - if you paid attention to what happened last year, when I altered the hump back jump they actually loved it and, performed much better, breakages and crashes wherre substantially reduced.
Youngsters love jumps, we agree. But I keep marshalling those jumps and most of the crashes happen when they try to get over fairly simple jumps. We don't need to make it harder by adding more. When you altered the jump you took away the steep attack angle which reduced the breakages, so well done for that, but it didn't reduce the number of rolls, bobbles and crashes that all require marshalling.

3) Yes foams will work on short pile astro - again read the previous posts where we are suggesting long pile astro and more jumps - You will naturally have to raise ride height then to accomodate the jumps and you will find there is little difference in performace of the two types of tyre then - Oh and for clarity I dont buy the foams are substantially cheeper arguement because as previously said they chunk, you need attitive - its more difficult for the youngsters as, you have to be in the know to be able to buy a set.
Asked and answered. To be honest I don't like foams either but they perform great and save a fortune. Foams can be repaired if you chunk them and an £8 bottle of additive will last 12 months. Many people have posted where to get them so I don't understand "being in the know". Add up a set of wheels, inserts and tyres each meeting. Then you'll see the savings.

4) Most youngsters buy a ready to run kit off the shelf which is usually pre-built to Off Road buggy spec - so there ride height will be more in tune with the suitibly altered track. - If they want to learn in a on road flat track environment then buy a GT12 not a Off Road Buggy (The clues in the name)
I agree with your first comment but so what. A beginner going to be roughly the same no matter what they drive and the state of the set up, within reason. Also they are learning in an on road environment. The reason they don't buy a GT12 is because they want to play with them outside. I understand that, who doesn't love taking a 2wd buggy on some waste ground doing some donuts:thumbsup:

The off road buggy comment I wanted to answer separately with a thought about this years North West BRCA regionals. Two 8th tracks are on the calendar and some people seem not to be happy saying the tracks are to rough for 10th scale. Well its off road so what's the problem? Maybe that's too off road? My view is these are racing buggies and provided we're racing, I'm happy.


5) with regards Fringe things - I consider the above to be Fringe things without altering the make up of the club - we all love the family atmosphere of the club and the excellent manner in which its run
We're together in our views of the atmosphere of the club and the running of it. Where we come a part is our views on what's a major or minor change. The track, introducing checks and changing what people buy, or how much they buy is heading towards major.

6) Who mentioned running to BRCA Rules - again read the proposals - the worst it means is that someone checks the ride heights and tyre type, which will only take checking for a month or so before all you will need are spot checks.
The BRCA rules was a tongue in cheek comment. I agree with you about needing to enforce rules if we have them. What I'm concerned about is how far does that end up going.

The point of this thread is to look at what we have and ideas for change. All things need to change but not for the sake of it. My posts are only one mans opinion so aren't right or wrong, same as anything posted on here. If you agree, say why. Same if you disagree or if you've got ideas which haven't been posted.

All this is coming down to one thing, the AGM. I've been to AGM's before. Ones for Ribble and other clubs, the format is always the same. A full agenda with not enough time so what happens is a brief 5 minute discussion then a vote. So the unofficial place for debates and airing views is forums. This forum thread in fact so I apologise for bringing that to the other thread but lets carry on thinking and posting.

[QUOTE=rallymaddaz;835560]Andy,

Oh and for clarity I dont buy the foams are substantially cheeper arguement because as previously said they chunk, you need attitive - its more difficult for the youngsters as, you have to be in the know to be able to buy a set.
QUOTE]

Really!!!! I have been back racing since this time last year and am on my SECOND set of foams! so thats a years racing for approx 30 quid!
If we are being picky add 8 quid for the additive. Still cheaper than pins any day of the week. And as far as being in the know to buy them I am sure that small company called shumacher racing may sell them. Also people are putting additive on rubber tyres so that cost will stay the same.

I am not trying to put down peoples opinion but the above comment just seems untrue.

Just to also clarify I havent trued up the foams before using them and for my first set didnt remove the belts from the wheel either. The club are also working on making foams more readily avaliable to club racers and I am sure the guy from ross models would be happy to sort people out with a set if asked.

Just a thought :)

I do understand why some people want to get rid of foams but I am not convinced it will make racing any better.

[QUOTE=MattK;835614]
Matt

You missed at least three months worth of racing last year - I'm on my forth set of foams since June last year and I don't go all that often - the point is you can't buy a set off the shelf ready to run as per the rubber tyres therefore you are disadvantaging those that

1) don't know where to get the foams from
2) don't know how to prepare there wheels to take them
3) don't have the facility to install them


How is that racing for fun and fair for all - don't get me wrong I like the feel of driving on foams but it's not equal for all and as such should be reviewed.

Chris has used one set of rubber tyres on his daughters car since august and they are still going strong.

Oh and out of interest I've used both yellow and blue pins and providing the tarp is not in the course there is no difference in lap time but a huge difference in wear rate.

i think this is getting a little bit distorted and largely by one person, i wont name names but its andy :D, all people have been asking for is a more off road enviroment for lack of a better word. There is room for a bit of extra track and i will discuss this with the committee hopfully on friday night rather than adding another subject on here to get moaned about. as far as extra features go and building them i have already said to eric im more than happy to get stuck in and help out. At the end of the day people want to race off road cars on an off road track at their local club not at another club on another day .... oh im probably on my 10th set of foams in under a year

I did miss some racing but still did about 9months on one set, but was 2wd and they were kamtec foams not contact so maybe a difference there.
It does seem to me that the top racers in the club (so me defiantly not included) don't want foams. So would it not be better for those to run pins rather than banning foams? Most people will copy the top racers anyway. That way there will be no issue those that don't like foams will be pure racing off road cars and those that do can carry on.
I like the other ideas people are suggesting, but a ban on foams is not a good idea, if they are that bad and expensive and not much different to pins you don't need to run them.
If we ban foams there will be something else that creates a problem instead like wing size or motor power or type of deodorant you wear.:D

There will always be something! Fact.:lol:

Thanks Steve, its good to be credited with provoking creativity and ideas:D

Foams, love em or hate em, Rally makes a good point about mounting a set first time. Thinking back to when I first did it, aged 12, I got glue everywhere. All over my bedroom carpet, my parents went booloo.

Anyway to the point. If anyone wants some advice how to mount foams, plenty of people at the club have this knowledge, the mardave guys for sure, all you have to do is ask. Anyone can come and ask me, I'll show you. If you're running 12mm hex or AE wheels and ask me in advance, I'll bring my truer.

[/QUOTE]At the end of the day, i think the way the club operates works extremely well and should continue. If a driver wants more than the club can cater for then there are two options, respect the club for what it is, or, get more competitive buggy racing elsewhere.

A great debate but not everyone can be pleased in a hobby that accepts all abilities on the same playing field.

Great work RVRCCC :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

Think this sums it up very well for me.

The club has regulars who have come for years, is great at encouaging youngsters, is very friendly and one of our biggest problems is the distinct possibility of having to turn racers away! It must be doing something very right.

Not saying we shouldn't look for improvements, but I just hope we get things in context:)

Sorry couldn't resist, although i recognise I risk extending the debate:yawn:

I wasn't too happy when the switch to foams happened. I held out as long as possible, but succumbed in the end. I now have very mixed feelings about the thought of being forced to go back to pins. I also honestly found it very easy to buy them once I found out what they were called.

My own experience has been they have really saved me a lot of money. Ran the first set on the b44 since foams kicked off. Whats that, nearly a year? I only swapped them last week. Only used one additive stick in that time too. Never chunked or had to repair (touch wood).

Anyway, just thought i would share my experience.

Not sure what is happening to your foams but Im on my original sets on both my 2wd & 4wd buggies which can be used upto 3 times a week, and have been for the last 2 years. If it was decided to ban the use of foams then unfortunately this would be the last winter we race here, it would just be to expensive for tyres on top of the fuel costs.
Things seem good at the club! No point rocking the boat just for the sake of it. Unless it was for wider lanes lol :thumbsup: