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Terry - you can't read and you either agreed with me in your replies or misunderstood, or just went off on a tangent. You have absolutely no clue sir, no clue at all.
If someone wants to start racing where would you suggest they go, oOple or BRCA website for info? I know what I think, I know I'm a helpful considerate guy - and I also see outside the box that you're stuck in. If you think I'm a wanker - call me a wanker - don't dick about. I call it like I see it - why you keep ranting on about 12th scale I've no idea. We don't overcharge cells in 10th off road, end of. I think you're completely out of touch, not sure if I mentioned that, but you are. :p |
Jimmy, I don't know if you and Terry have underlying issues but what he has said is absolutely spot on.
Homologation has been heavily referred to in this thread and Terry's comments regarding that are right and I would suggest anyone who might want to post would read them before retreading old ground. |
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The BRCA are us the racers, the committee is voted in by us and the rules are voted in by us and voted out by us.
If you don't like something its important to act to change it. As someone who is involved with getting stuff homologated and has had products fail at a big expense to us, I still think its vitally important work that Paul Worsley does in his own time for no cost. Firstly the fees if any are completely negligible, any company looking to sell a product into UK can get homologated. The rules for motors especially are a cost saver to us the racer as they limit the factors that could make a motor super fast but have a very short lifespan, meaning that only the top sponsored guys could have any chance to win competitions like the bad old days. Batteries can be and are overcharged and at too high a C rate which causes dangers and reduces lifespan, again the voltage check keeps these factors in check. To have a race class you must have rules, these rules do need amending to keep up with market trends and technical improvements. To me Offroad is one of the few classes that is really open and fair. Go to a TC Spec race and you need a lawyer to get past Scrutineering. |
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That's your opinion - I don't agree. I think he's wrong. But - that's my opinion. |
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Mark, Just because someone has a swollen or worn out damaged pack it does not mean they will get a FOC replacement. If it did we would be out of business. Team Orion batteries are used by many people without problems, yes there are issues and we try to deal with them fairly. Please stop attacking Orion unless you can prove no other brand has Battery failures? |
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Please prove me wrong. |
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http://www.rc-news.de/wp-content/upl...LiPo_Bag_2.jpg http://www.giantshark.co.uk/images/lipo%20bag.jpg |
Believe me Keith, you are free to talk to me and raise one single point that Terry said and I'm fairly sure I'll rebuff it with common sense.
When someone starts ranting on about the safety at a 12th scale race - when I was clearly and solely talking about 10th off road modified, I guess you just have to let it go. Completely and utterly missing the point. Amazing! |
There should be only two rules:
1) Commericially available in the UK. 2) Any racer should be able to challenge you for your item (motor, esc, lipo etc) for the UK list price of that item plus a small fee for the inconvience to you. So you can create a cheating motor if you want, but anybody you beat has the right to buy it off you so the advantage is temporary at best. Safety should also be covered by that if we want to - lipos that catch fire in normal use are hardly 'fit for purpose'. As for the box - What bugs me is that standard out of the box cars frequently don't fit in the box. WTF? I assume manufacturers make them to the maximum size the rules allow, and some variance occurs which means a few are over, but the result is a silly rule that requires club racers at big events to start filing axles like mad (Team drivers normally check this before the meeting!) when they weren't even trying to cheat in the first place! Anyway just remember rules aren't meant to make racing be fair, just to give the illusion that its fair. |
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I must say, I'm tempted to get a metal container for my cells. Yes a lipo sac buys a couple of seconds if it's spotted in time - I'm not sure at what point seeing the cells balloon is safer or having them hidden is safer. I don't fancy my hoiuse burning down though so biscuit tin it is! :thumbsup: |
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The brilliant thing about 10th off road now is that there's no such thing as a cheating motor - the cars are just too fast. We have the rules about traction control etc and sizes. Have at it and race. :thumbsup: |
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I personally agree with Jimmy on this. Its like we are stuck in the 80's/90's. As for Batterys and motors in 1/10th off road. Speed advantages are hardly noticeable between a 10.5 Boosted and 6.5 Boosted so i personally think any motor should be acceptable. MY 2P worth |
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Some people and I'm not pointing at you here Keith, think it's all about the 1% at the very top who take it very very seriously (and cheat, and blow themselves up in onroad classes, apparently) but forget the vast majority of people who are into this HOBBY for fun. I'm into it for fun. I appreciate all that EFRA/IFMAR/BRCA etc has done and I'm always one of the last to thank the organisers of any race meeting - I mean, I am there till the end usually. I don't do any of this for any other reason than I enjoy it. I've given up a good living in computer games - an easy living where I could just sit all day and draw stuff. I worked 24 hours non-stop through to 1:30 this afternoon on various things - not for money but because I have passion. I want to promote the sport but insular thinking isn't going to help - I don't think like regular people because I'm slightly odd :lol: and I am there laying in a puddle, getting hit by cars, spending thousands of pounds on cameras for what - if you added up everything I've ever gained from R/C it wouldn't come close to what I've spent on it. I'm probably too passionate for my own good but there it is - you make of it what you will. Any time someone thanks me for getting them into R/C again or when I help people out, clubs etc - that is what it's about. Knowing you've done some good. If something good comes of this particular thread - then maybe one day some people will stop hating me, I don't know. I spoke outloud in this manner at Stotfold national last year - where I pointed out a need for an RRCi style series as people like me can't even race nationals or Euros anymore. What happend? People talked about it and things started to pick up. In the end we decided to try running a series and told the BRCA first as a way of courtesy and to inform of our intentions. This year the entries will be open - who knows how it'll go, or if it'll take off properly. I see people want to meet new friends from around the country / europe / world and love the atmosphere of a friendly less formal race meeting. The BRCA I believe do, or did say that the national series wasn't a family event - forgive me if I've mis quoted that, but I am the opposite. Come to the oOple invernational and you will only see smiles. When a young lad fell and broke his transmitter I organised a new one for him FOC straight away - his dad was happy enough to go at repairing the broken one in the end, but you know, helping people and making the sport bigger and better is what I love. The oOple Invernational and Series are non-profit and is totally and utterly seperate from me or this website financially. That's how it's always been and always will be. Terry can think what he likes at the end of the day and misquote me till his keyboard wears out - but I know I have more passion than him. |
So, all we need to do is get the BRCA members to change the offroad rules at the next AGM :woot:
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Homologation is a throwback from the days when we didn't have more power than grip (in general, across all classes). The last ''big'' meeting at the Ashby On-road track was a Schumacher BTCC round in 2007, and IIRC the pole time in 19t brushed would have gotten TQ at the 1999 TC Euros, thats the rate of progress. Anyway, I believe the construction rules and regs were put in place to stop someone concocting some sort of Frankenstein motor with neodymium magnets and some other exotic (powerful) materials to go faster than Joe Bloggs next to you on the rostrum.
Now, as Jimmy says, we have waaaaaaay more power than most can handle. Can't drive the car with a 6.5? Drop in a 7.5. Can't drive 2WD? Go 4WD. And to that line, I think homologation is a bit redundant to a degree. The fastest guys will still choose to race with whatever they think is the best, and will still top the timesheets. I think the mid-pack would be affected though, if faster stuff came through at a premium over what we have now, the manufacturers would get right on it and hike up the prices. With a higher price-tag, then Joe Racer may not be able to get the flavour of the month every time someone made a faster motor or LiPo, and we can all guess where that would be headed. Everything in RC has gotten more expensive. Cars, batteries, motors, ESCs etc. Thats a given, but you've really gotta ask yourself this. Are you doing RC to pick up sponsorships and plastic trophies, or to hang out with mates and have a good time? If its the latter....do you really need to spend as much as you have on all your gear? All my suppositions and opinions though. - Edit, just saw what Jimmy posted above, seems like a similar way of thinking to myself. Great minds and all that. :) |
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LiPo sack, there are pro's and cons, the pro's are that a properly constructed LiPo sack is only there as a containment whilst you disconnect from charger etc. Cons, there are many, firstly unless they are almost airtight, pointless, you also can't see an early indicators of issue's and the big one is, who dictates if a LiPo sack is safe, I know that the manufacturer/distributor is responsible for any claims, but, if I were to buy a fire blanket it would have BS Kite marks and conform to ISO regulations, if I was a particularly fussy insurance assessor, I would be asking what these are constructed in accordance with. As for LiPo fires, only ones I have seen have been on the track. Most failures I have heard of whilst charging is user arror (wrong profile on charger). I also agree, LiPo's are far FAR inherently safer than the last couple of generations of NiMH batteries, they were lethal and the only 'guidance' was to charge at 1C. HOMOLOGATION If you have rules for construction then you have to homologate, which is only ever a concern for you if you are running at a BRCA controlled event. Once you have got past the national series then surely it is up to the organisers whether they follow the list. There is nothing stopping anyone buying cheap as long as they don't wish to participate in a National (as the rules are to govern the national series and guidance for all else). But, if one governing body has homologated a product I don't see a reason why another body has to, so if a battery is ROAR approved or BRCA approved, they should be legal for use at sanctioned events world wide. Now, the one confusion I have is that motors can be submitted at any time but batteries once a year, which kinda discourages getting them sorted. I do understand that when we were racing NiCD and NiMH's that we would have 6 packs and if someone brought out a bigger capacity cell then we would all really be forced to go buy them to keep up, but as Jimmy has said, nobody struggles now for duration, so I can't really see anyone jumping mid season because Team X has brought out a new battery. I think, for the beginner, it can look all very much daunting and expensive to get into it (although I know for a fact, in relative terms, it is far FAR cheaper than when I first started in 1989). I do understand the need for a BRCA and fully understand how it works etc, and as a club official, the only thing that interests me is the General Rules, as that is all we have to follow in the end. I think clubs have to decide as to how strict they are on the rest of the rules, to be honest. I won't turn someone away because their gear isn't on the list, as long as their car is safe and they fallow the general rules that is all I am interested in. I do feel that when you create rules due to 'safety' then you do leave yourself wide open for a swift kick in the nuts. If I am charging in out hall in a secured LiPo sack, and I have a failure, the sack doesn't contain the fire and it damages the table, blind and wall then the hall claims against us, we pass it on to the BRCA who will then pass it on to the manufacturer/distributor of the sack. Now, the insurance company can go for two groups, the BRCA for stipulating a product HAS to be used but then provide no regulations as to how they are built and the distributor, which is where it can come really sticky, as they are making a safety product that conforms to no regs. It is a hornets nest of dilema's. I do think though that this rules has come about due to members not paying attention to, LiPo cells are in everything, phones, laptops, hand held gaming devices etc, and I have only seen one pic of a lipo fire from a mobile phone.... So Jimmy, I see and agree with most of it, my problem is these days, that due to me not doing nationals, most of it I couldn't give a toss about :thumbsup: |
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Some interesting points in this thread, I have one question though.
Why is it mandatory that you have to attend the agm to have a vote. There are a lot of Brca members who cannot either afford to or give the time to travel to the Agm and this "turn up and vote if you don't like it" does seem a bit antiquated in the digital age. Surely the sections can have a questionnaire on their Brca page which you can submit your proposals or ideas and then be able to vote on the changes after you have logged in? As regards cells and motors etc i run both ezrun 5.5 and speed passion 10.5 (in case someone moans - I prefer the ezrun as its waterproof). Both perform similar for what I need but one is twice the price of the other. I got my ezrun from a uk shop but my speed passion from abroad. Does that mean its not legal even though its on the list because I didn't get it from a uk source as per homologation? I have 2 Brca legal packs and 2 nanotech I got from hobbyking uk. The nanotech are by far a better battery than the Brca legal packs, never swell or get hot and balance perfect. Price under £25 delivered against the others I got from Hong Kong for £44 delivered. I know which ones I will buy again..... |
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I don't think many people realise this, but its entirely possible to run a season of racing outdoors with cool funny people, and have close competition and fun antics without needing to have anything to do with the BRCA. The RRCI series is a perfect example. Its not simple, but its doable. Talk to clubs, get dates, arrange insurance cover, make your own classes and rules, and job done. Happens all the time in America. |
Hopefully that's what the oople series will be !
All you really need is the tyre rule and mates to have fun with! |
Thats exactly it. The BRCA is a great organisation which has its roots at the dawn of RC racing in the UK, its a fantastic asset to the hobby in general, not just us in Britain. However, the BRCA gets made into a scapegoat sometimes, people saying ''why aren't THEY doing this or that'' or ''THEY are stopping us from doing what we want'' etc.
The reality is that the BRCA is just one way of enjoying our awesome hobby. Just one form of structured racing (for now). Lots of clubs use the BRCA rulesets for ease of use, its ready and set there for everyone to see. And of course, the BRCA insurance is invaluable. Its not just the only option though. |
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If you have a problem with the motor and lipo rules and the EB lists in off road, then the solution is to propose and convince your fellow racers to vote to not use them at the AGM. Complaining because you don't agree with the EB rules and want to change them isn't going to happen unless you can persuade all the other electric classes that use them to control their equipment isn't going to happen. All the motor and battery rules have been put there for the good of the racers who want to use the lists. I have raced in most electric categories, both on and off road. Different classes have completely different needs and should be treated separately. So off road has got more power than grip, that's great. But there are many other classes that need to limit what motors and batteries are used, and need to try and keep a level playing field. So off road doesn't overcharge their lipos because there is no need to. Fine, so therefore it's a rule that buggy racers would never break anyway. Getting every last bit of voltage is why we all bought IB4200s because they had less than a tenth of a volt higher average discharge voltage. Other classes with motor limits use bigger and bigger capacity lipos because again it gives a slightly higher average voltage during the race. In other classes it can make a big difference so you can't dismiss a general rule for all sections just because it wouldn't make a difference in off road. Deciding it's stupid just because buggy racers don't do it is deliberately ignoring every other electric class that is run. Go watch a touring car national and see how they will do everything to get every last fraction of a second out of their car. personally I think they all take it way too seriously considering we are just playing with toy cars for a hobby. The voltage limit is also a nice simple way of protecting the BRCA from liability, you want to overcharge your cells then go ahead but the BRCA won't be helping you if you set fire to the hall you are in. If you are wanting changes to general rules you really want to think further afield than just off road, after all no one would be happy if the touring car boys were imposing rules on the off road sections. Being 'in touch' with what buggy racers think doesn't mean you are in touch with all other sections. If you have a problem with any rule and the majority of racers in your section think the same then there is nothing stopping you changing it. That's the whole point of the AGM, if you or anyone else thinks a rule is stupid or unworkable there is nothing stopping anyone proposing a change and getting it voted in. And if someone wanted to know the best place for advice to start racing I would always recommend going to their local club first. Then whether they are on Oople or Racechat they would get the same advice from me. You are the one that wanted to open up a debate.:thumbsup: |
Terry you posts are very long and dry, some of your good/valid points may get lost in the noise of being boring :p ( not having a dig just saying)
saying that i don't think your points are not aligned to the average 1/10 racers thoughts and if its regulated by racers this its a bit of a contradiction. i've never heard of any one trying to over change there cells in 1/10 if you want to go faster you just add boast on your ESC or use a faster motor, some one please correct me if i am wrong. its sounds like each class should have its own tailored rules or exceptions, rules are rules and there need to be rules but there ain't nothing wrong with challenging them. |
I was talking solely about 10th off road modified - not Stock in Germany, we don't really have that over here. It's almost completely mod.
I did not complain - I thrust my opinion out there and invited discussion. I have nothing to complain about since I never race in any sanctioned races. I either race at club level or some one-off event. I don't care what lipo or motor or chassis is legal or not for myself. It's my opinion that it's not needed for this class of racing, the one I'm most involved with. There's nothing more fair that modified - once you restrict the power people cheat. I didn't realise how widespread it was but I had a long conversation with a nameless chap last night who said their stock TC series was almost 'STOCK' now, because everyone knows how to cheat to the same level. Silly. I never understood stock - it's a good theory but people will always want to be MORE EQUAL. This is the future of the hobby as a whole, not my demands! I couldn't give a chuff what any sanctioning body does - they can insist everyone buy a purcy or that everyone use an LRP 2.5, whatever they do that isn't good will hurt the sport, what they do that is good will help the sport. In regards to my initial post - I was clearly referring to the sillyness of some rules (TC's must have loads) and outdated nature of others. You must agree that there was never a level playing field with older technology and in specific reference to electric off road 10th buggies, the technology has taken care of things in terms of fair racing. Will you see someone go to a big sanctioned event with a £10 lipo? probably not - so why even have a list. The list doesn't apply to regional and club level unless the organisers choose to use them. So you're only talking about national-level really. I know of a person who ran an entire national season on clearly non-legal cells and it was never picked up on. Was it an unfair advantage? no, he had the option to have free cells that were good but not homologated. Did he cheat? technically yes, does anyone care? probably not. Why? because everyone already knows it's about as fair as it gets. I'm not speaking in anger or bitterness when I say homologation never did the job of making things equal - you can ask any racer, or indeed yourself - you know the answer. Yes - it might have stopped some sneaky advancements but at the end of the day, the top guys had better stuff. 'Team Packs' are what they called the best rejects. Now everyone uses lipo's - they're all the same, I mean, too fast! |
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i have not said other dont have issues either |
love a debate
so.
we dont have to run to BRCA rules at large events etc, just arrange insurance. cool. job done. Clubs, donmt have to run to BRCA rule, just arrange insurance, cool. job done. BRCA is an option not a requirement............ great...... Lets look into arranging multiclub insurance that we can all sign up to without the need for the BRCA rules. IF you want to run BRCA rules. they need to be set ones for each class, not an accross the board for all classes as that clearly is not working and to confusing and contradictive.... We need to encourage more newbies, young and old into the sport. The "rules" that are in place makes it confusing and often puts people off. I have had a recent issue at stotfold, regarding the 3 race before having to sign up to brca and they were a returning driver, being told they were not welcome there. The 3 race rule was decided that it would not count this time as a winter race and the driver was deemed not good enough etc etc, This is NOT the attitude to have and the BRCA rule in place was decided it was not applicable to suit the club that day. Discusting attitude, if the BRCA did not have this "power" then the driver would have been in heat one, like any other new/learning driver and we would have made allowances for them, EVERY LAST ONE OF US STARTED THE SAME DAMN WAY! So the BRCA ruling should not have any say in the new drivers etc, but it did. I do not agree with it. This instance soured me to the BRCA rules somewhat, and it seems the brca and its "racer" reps, have lost there way somewhat. IN MY OPINION ONLY. The rules that are enforced by the brca are not representative of the racer community as a whole. not even in the slightest. The comments about come and vote etc etc, Change the rules etc. unless there is an online/postal vote then it wont happen or change. Regarding the comments about doing it at the time on the day etc, rubbish, the rules are made, written down and appear as hard and fast rules. SO. why can those rules be put to a vote, online, with options on the important/large ones regarding motors, lists, esc's, lipos sacks, 3 race rule, events/sactioned etc etc.... Its because the BRCA have had it the same way for decades and dont want to change. I for one would like a more open and honest BRCA that allows people from all over the UK to be involved in the "whos in and whos out" vote, as well as an online vote to the "RULES" mentioned. All clubs should have an open door policy no matter who they are to encourage new/returning drivers and what people are alowed to race etc, Its seems to be all politics and hiding behind rules and "blind/secretive" voting. Debate continues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!:p |
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a club can be in the BRCA and its members, the only rules that club needs to follow are brca general rules, (then the insurance cover is active) any motors, any lipo nimh gell cell etc as far as im aware the 3 times rule is only club meetings, if it was a brca sanctioned event (which it must have been to have brca officials turning drivers away!) if it was club officials they are not the brca |
I have say the BRCA has to be considered like the Highway code. As i understrand it. im sure i will be corrected.
If you host a non BRCA event and something happens due to something done that is dangerous it could be you the event organiser who is liable. if you set clear instruction to follow BRCA rules and an individual causes an incident whilst not following the rules then they would be liable not you!!! I think this liability issue is why clubs are adamant BRCA rules are followed it protects them. |
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I'm asking you if you think that no other brand has batteries that swell? Can you say with full confidence that orion are the only batteries that swell. Im saying if you cant say that honestly or that orion are in some way inferior you should attacking Team Orion as a brand! |
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ok the only lipos i have heard of from friends (who owned them) that swell are orions.... disclaimer, there may be other batteries out there that swell too .... |
Ahhhhhhhh, standards written by committee, almost guaranteed to be a disaster.
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Jimmy, it is disappointing that you asked for debate, and then lay into the people who disagree with your view and start that debate! It is almost as if someone has hacked your user-name and turned cool-Jimmy into troll-Jimmy.
Terry.sc has said everything I would say, nothing more to add. We used to have exactly the system you want, Jimmy, and it was a disaster. Every month one had to buy a new motor and cells just to keep up, and that was in Off-Road! If you want to change the voting rules to allow postal or internet voting, then all you have to do is put up a proposal to change the Constitution and General Rules, get 100 people to the AGM by bus and coach and vote for it - it would more than likely go through. Once you have that you can then propose and vote on a simple rule - that the 10th Off-Road Section abandon the EB rules for eligibility to race in 10th Off-Road Nationals - and you'd probably get that too. One thing is for certain, getting people to say they agree with you on any forum (even one as good as Oople) is going to change exactly nothing. If you want to get something done you have to do some work, and typing on your keyboard does not qualify as work in this case! I look forward to the return of cool-Jimmy... ;) |
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sadly, one is..... it was a winter series like any other club race. not a sacntioned brca event like a regional etc. that aside, the rules are flaunted to suit those at the time making a mockery of the BRCA rules and regs etc. and regarding getting 100 people there to vote bla bla, yeah right. the problem is those that go and vote are the same people in would guess. I have never been invited or informed of when or where the vote takes place etc. and as mentioned i think above somewhere, nor has others. Its a sad state that the official side of the hobby/sport is in and needs sorting. Use the wondeful age of digital/internet etc and make that happen, people do not have the time/funds etc to make a trip to where ever this voting goes on and "make a difference". So it will continue like this. Out dated "turn up and vote" systems just do not work or have a place in this modern world any more IMHO. Everyone has to accept the world and people move on and they have to keep up or give up.:confused: and still, it goes on.................;) |
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