I don't mean the BRCA do all the policies, just a general umbrella that you can use with a broker to push the price down a bit.

First of all I started this thread !

There has been some very good points made and some not so good.

I believe that only 5% of BRCA Members have read the whole handbook cover to cover for each class they race.
Most members either cherry pick and find the info needed or are told by a third as problems arise, as this subject has.

Marshal point positioning and safety is a major issue main due to the point is put there a car is most likely to crash so in some instances is in its design in an unsafe position, but that's where it needs to be.

Marshal points are also placed where the member has to marshal two points of the track ( not the norm but it does happen ) and in the case you can't look in two direction and as such you may not see the car coming and hence an accident waiting to happen.

Next the Driver of the car is almost 99% at fault, ( wait for abuse ) he or she is after all driving the thing. A Marshal wearing a florry yellow bib should stand out, plus shouting car on the straight, on the whoops etc etc is ignored, so is the marshal at fault, sorry but no, warnings have been given and ignored. I was at two national indoor meetings earlier this year when one driver decided, during a final, that he would try to get his car to hit the roof of the indoor event, event one, almost wiped out the whole rostrum of drivers when his car was out of control and his car landed in the catch net above the jumps, second event again jumped and his car got stuck in the lights/roof and showered the track with car parts and flo lights as this was broken. We were all warned about excessive jumping, but this was ignored just because it was a laugh. Race director's to my knowledge did nothing about these issues.

Like many, many of us who have been racing for years ( 30 in my case ) safety has come a long way, yellow/orange bibs for instance, only over 12's as marshals but accidents will always happen, the very definition of and accident is " An accident or mishap is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity ".

Sorry but just saying you didn't read or are to lazy to read the rules ridiculous.

Like I said I've been racing for some 30 years, have enjoyed every class I've raced and will continue to and will also marshal to the best of my ability, but I will state this, I will now consider is it safe and is the fault of the problem down to bad drivers !


I do think the insurance option should be offered on the BRCA, with so many members a potential discount should be available.

I also agree with the above, Personal Accident Insurance will not cover you if you put yourself in harms way, I've just asked an insurance broker in town this question.

As Jim Spencer has put, he was tasked with getting a group quote, if I remember correctly it could only be done if all members took it, and membership would have been around _£30 when it was voted on at the agm it got no where as no one would second it.

Did everyone at the agm realise the insurance currently offered was insufficient !

With something as large as this issue a paper ballot should be done with all BRCA Members as very few can attend the agm meeting due to time and financial restraints

Also to Jim and the rest of the BRCA Committee
This is not in any way a dig into your abilities or the time you give !

This issue has arisen, some have more light than others on this subject and it is more than clear that its not made clear enough that 100% know the facts !!!!

Im sure Jim explained the difference in both covers.

I fail to see how you did not know after thirty years of racing, that the third party public liability did not cover you for personal inquiry it has allways been the same, ask your broker about third party insurance...

As I and others have posted, if YOU want to be covered get the required insurance, I'm covered for sick pay off work by my company. So don't want to pay extra on my membership thanks.

What the heck is £30 ? Your paying more than that for a set of tyres now!

It makes no difference if i been racing 30 years or 30 minutes
Like I said in my earlier post, not all read the book cover to cover, I was told by a Club Official that I was joining, that we need BRCA for insurance purposes and it covers you for accidents at race meetings within the track domain. And to be honest I don't think the books been around for 30 years, neither has BRCA subs.

Also check the wording of your policy with work or a Personal Accident Insurance, putting yourself in harms warm ( ie causing part of the accident ) invalidates the insurance.

There was a new rule came in for this problem there should be a marshall only at the beginning of a jump section and at the end no where else on the jump section as it was classed as unsafe;

Surely this child was well under age to be out marshalling anyways as the legal limit is 12 for marshalling in line with the BRCA Rules .This is down to the parent/guardian to either marshall for the child or they are taking it on there heads if anything happend no claim would be made as should not of been out marshalling;

Normally this is said at drivers briefing or in the rules of whatever meeting or series you are attending

re:marshalling points and jumps... As the years have gone on, tracks have got faster and bigger and more/bigger jumps at the request of the drivers.

How far do you really want the BRCA to have to legislate for you to run your car on a club day?

Depends on the class being raced.

I have had my few posts on this subject and i am going to let it lie as i could sit here posting till the cows come home and it is not going to change anything or improve my condition at this moment in time

I have been back to hospital today to see othapedic Consultant and i am in a leg brace aided with crutches for a further 3 months. This is after 8 weeks of being in plaster .After this time he is hoping for some improvement so he can start further treatment on my nerve damage along side with soft tissue and damage to the top surface of the bones;

Oh the joys of car racing but it is a MOTORSPORT and can be DANGEROUS

So how is it anyone else's fault if they choose not to read the book?
That club official must have been one of those people too!
They may not have been around for 30 years, but in the time they have been around, it has been the same level of cover. I'm not sure what your point was there?

As regards to balloting members and making decisions outside of the AGM, as I understand it requires a change to the BRCA constitution which in turn needs to be voted in at an AGM - I know it's very catch 22, but them's the rules the BRCA committee has to abide by.

And yes I have been injured by cars, fortunately not as badly as others and I wish them all a speedy recovery.

I've been reading this thread with interest, it's safe to say we all enjoy the hobby and I don't think many of us would believe that 'where there is blame there is a claim', accidents happen and you get on with life as those that have been hit by cars on this thread and taken it on the chin, no pun intended, prove. BUT working for the past 8 years in the insurance industry it's easy to spot some massive grey areas and loopholes regarding the current rules, all it needs is a compensation claim from someone greedy to set a precedent and I guarantee no note in a rulebook will make any difference.

I'm also a rock climber and find the below article/link outrageous as it effected a company that friends work for, Craggy Island in Guildford, and had the climbing community outraged, the same thing could potentially happen to any RC club. For some personal responsibility or liability means nothing, it does give food for thought as to how little water a disclaimer holds though if you're determined to hold someone responsible. A broken ankle, deemed to be an injury worth £150,000 in this case, also shows how much can be at stake:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66978

Well that could open a can of worms ? She is only 1/3rd to blame ????

So working in the insurance industry.. Can you tell us all is there such a policy
That wound cover lost of earnings, and not looking to be made rich!
That we could take out, which would pay out after say, if you out of work for 4 weeks, due to an accident which occurred due to marshalling a R/C Model car ?

i think we are missing a crucial point here guys. If someone stuffs their car onto it's roof or sticks it against something & can't move the car under their cars own power, is it YOUR fault when you are marshaling that someone has binned it? I think the thing is & has to be only move when YOU get the gut feeling it's safe to do so.

Yes we all get narked at Marshals (i even do it myself) when a marshal doesn't put your car back on the track but so long as he's not stood there with his/her hands in his pockets, picking his nose or is only marshaling his mates cars up 1st (which does often happen if Father is marshaling Son, nobody else's car seems to matter) even though your car has been there long before his mate crashed, then as i see it, so long as the marshal has moved to give you the idea he's paying attention & knows your car has crashed the only thing to do is be lenient with him because he is the one risking his neck to put your cock-up right.

I have read all of this with interest and can see valid points from both sides of the argument so don't have a strong opinion myself but there are a few questions....

Realistically, are clubs / fellow drivers etc going to accept it when (not if) someone refuses to marshall? If its voluntary then no one should be forced, but in my experience you often are otherwise you are threatened with being penalised.

I will always marshall and will always try to marshall as I would wish to be marshalled myself, but honestly, if someone else refused on safety grounds then that should be graciously accepted. Of course, we all know this would spread like wildfire until no-one wanted to marshall anymore and when asked why safety would always be the get out clause, even if it had nothing to do with it (laziness, broken car to fix, hung over etc etc...)

Secondly, all examples talk of cars colliding with people and therefore the blame at least partially being lying with the victim for stepping into the path of the oncoming vehicle.

What is the score when no car is involved? Last winter I fell over 3 times at Stotfold whilst marshalling and I saw others running into double figures also fall or slip over. The astro gets like an ice rink given some moisture in the air and a cold day.

Fortunately each time I was able to get up with no more than a sore ass/leg/wrist/back etc and carry on. What would have happened if I had broken something though, who is to blame then? If someone slipped and fell on a wet floor in a shopping mall, you can guarantee someone would pay for it. If someone tripped due to unsafe paving in the high street then someone would pay for it....

So is it any different on an RC track that has been exposed to the elements? Should a track have those little 'wet floor' signs for such occasions? :woot:

Dont get me wrong, I am not advocating the ambulance chasing type but I am interested to see where this scenario sits with regards to any insurance cover or who may be liable?

Returning back to the point of being hit by cars, I always look to see what else is approaching before stepping onto the track and if there are car(s) within a couple of seconds of me I let them pass first before marshalling the stricken car. This is surely common sense in the name of safety, but if that is the case then why do drivers of the stricken car get rowdy about not being marshalled as quickly as they would like..... :eh?:

Sadly personal policies of this nature are not my area of expertise so I'm of no real use there I'm afraid :( the difficultly arises, as others have said, in that by leaving your marshalling post you're knowingly putting yourself at risk and invalidating the terms BRCA insurance, so by putting yourself in a position of known danger you may also invalidate any additional policy you have taken out yourself. What you'd need to make sure of is that the policy includes what an insurer may deem a dangerous sport/hobby in much the same way that you will pay a premium on travel insurance for cover when skiing, climbing, mountain biking etc.

The only way I believe you'd be in the clear is to call an insurer or broker when taking out a policy and specifically inform them that you're racing and marshalling, explain the risks and why you need to be insured as a result, the aim would be to get them to write cover for it into policy document as an inclusion. The chance of ever needing to claim is slim at best but if something did happen that prevented you from working again you'd want to be certain that your insurers had agreed to underwrite the risk in the first place rather than assuming they had.

If there is one thing I do know for sure is that never assume with an insurance policy, the aim of the underwriter after all is to make as high a profit on premiums as possible whilst minimising payouts, it's just gambling with peoples misfortune as opposed to gambling on the stock market...

All very interesting reading !
And some very valid points

Can we get some official confirmation on this thread re: cover for pit crew?

i.e.

a) covered in pitlane? any exclusions?
b) cover when out on track retrieving a car - ie: 100% at your own risk? covered if you are out somewhere in the track area, wearing high viz but are off the actual track and near a marshall point when you are hit?
c) at the start of a race when you are instructed by race control to take cars to the grid - are you covered if there is a coming together as the cars leave the grid and a car leaves the track and hits you? are the numbered start points deemed safe?

Bearing in mind how much everything else costs in this hobby....I would be more than happy to pay around £30-40 for my BRCA membership if it provided a better level of insurance.

my works is not a policy, i get paid full sick pay, no questions!

Not very likely, for an official line, the only way to do it is to contact the BRCA directly, probably starting with the section chairman. All the contact details can be found in the handbook or on the BRCA website.

without trying to cause offence but what ever happened to accepting a accident and getting on, fair enough if your work doesnt cover sick pay and you break your ankle but at the end of the day it comes back to your decision to retrieve the car, crt's case and similar an exeption in that it prevented them from their work, from my point of view people are wanting compensation for everything, what i am refering to is the people out there who will make a claim just because a car ran over their toes, but this was no way ment as a dig at anyone here

I can't believe it.

Surely it's not possible?

For the third time this month I find myself in total agreement with Mr Christopher...

im not?

also remember that £30 was accross the board, from top national drivers down to the dad and his two lads that race at thier local club on a friday night inside on a gym floor!! you expect him to pay £90 to cover your ass?

Actually Jim spencer has been on here and he is the guy who is in the know on this topic, he has done it for a fair few years! he also posted the official line page 1 post 7

i have pointed him to the post.

steady you best sit down and have a warm drink :p:woot:

unofficially i would say
a) no
b) no
c) no

as you put your there 100% at your own risk.

I'm with you on that one too!

Nothing has changed in the hobby and i've had the same conversations over the years with many experienced drivers that were not aware of the facts being brought to light in his thread.

There is no instruction book for common sense and why should those that use it be penalised by having to take expensive insurance out for incompetence behind a radio controlled vehicle?

If you are marshalling properly and watching each car as it heads towards and past your marshal point then you should have time to react to it.

The hobby is only dangerous to fools!

Not a lot to some maybe, but it's alot to a new starter, say a father and a couple of kids. All clubs (not just RC) are suffering with new intake at the moment. Huge club joining fee's will put new members off.

hmm, club level meetings. Some parents do leave their kids to marshal on their own. Some, most are good though and assist, or take a point close to their child.

:woot:

Hi All

I've read the posts above and think all the questions asked have been correctly answered, but there's some points.

Firstly nobody has to read the 'whole book' you HAVE to read the General Rules which are Two pages - read them, anything you don't understand drop me an email and i'll elaborate on it.

Next bit
There is nobody on the Exec who would say they are an Insurance expert, thats why we only use an Insurance provider who is both an expert in public liability and motorsport - they know exactly what they are doing. They have had direct input into the wording of some of the rules.
This system has unfortunatly been tested a good few times, a couple of times with quite serious accidents, it works, and hence the sport is still here..


Remember the aim of this cover.
It's to protect You as a driver and You as an organiser - without those two things in place our sport would not exist at all.


The folks wanting cover while Marshalling, that isn't Public Liability - you cannot have that cover via that product.
To get it would require Personal Accident Insurance - which is available for all sorts of activities, right up to ones that are very dangerous indeed, whoever advised somebody otherwise above is quite wrong - you can easily get it for full sized motoracing for example.

I have explained earlier why this is tricky to do on a 'one size fits all' basis, and the best advice was to advise our members to: -
"obtain this from a high street broker for themselves if they want it"

Now I haven't currently got any intention of bringing the 'one size fits all' offering back to the AGM there's little point.


But having a bit of a think..

Would you like me to get a provider of Personal Accident Cover to advertise in the handbook so you know who to go to?

If I get a few PM's I can do that easily enough.


Lastly to repeat myself..

NOTHING has changed - the cover you have now is basically what you had 25 years ago, just with a few improvements added over the years.

cheers jim

it could be a good idea to find a broker and stick it in the book (providing its read ) :woot:
also a broker who insures for theft of gear?

bit like the hotel offer and national car hire is in there!

For the record...

I have 5 children of which three race and one pits for me, from time to time.
So I pay for five memberships a year !
And yea I would pay the extra membership £30 each for all of us, I think being done through the brca it would be value for money, and if someone else made a claim I would not think of it as I'm paying for someone else's ass !


I've read the handbook, but not everyone has?
Being hit on Saturday has just made me think, that's all !

I'm not making a claim against anyone nor will I !!!
Even when officials at the meeting knew what happened, but never came to me to even ask if I was okay?
Nor did the driver who had been warned of a Marshall being on the straight.

God forbid that something worst ever happens to anyone ?
If any of you had to be off work for six months for an injury where you put yourself in harms way, would you be able to financially cope? even if you had employers sick pay?

Anyway that's me done and like CRT I'm letting this lie

And yes, Jim if you would / could put a recommend insurer in the handbook, I think that really is a fantastic idea.

That would be ideal.... oh, and family membership, my tribe cost me a small fortune :thumbsup:

Hi

Ok I have been following this thread with interest. May I respectfully suggest
that with the obvious concern for our safety and the risk of unexpected or accidental events, we all make an effort to minimise the risks by ensuring we wear appropriate footwear i.e boots (Not trainers) which will support the ankle and offer increased protection against an impact. Plus a pair of gloves which may offer some protection against an over eager throttle trigger. No Loose clothing and most definitely no lurid shell suits. Oh yeah and no Onesies :p

like these?
http://www.corsetera.co.uk/images/up...70x672.jpg.jpg

or maybe:

http://static.artfire.com/uploads/st...humb_large.jpg

and these:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Disposable-In...o5!~~60_35.JPG


sorry...

Thanks for the photo of the boots now I can wear mine outside the house for a change.